Clause 26 - Age limits for purchase etc. of air weapons
Violent Crime Reduction Bill
10:30 am

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)

I beg to move amendment No. 2, in clause 26, page 28, line 33, at end insert 'in England and Wales'.

Joe Benton (Bootle, Labour)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 3, in clause 26, page 28, line 37, at end insert—

'(2A) After section 22(1) insert—-

''(1A) It is an offence in Scotland—

(a) for a person under the age of 18 to purchase or hire an air weapon or ammunition for an air weapon;

(b) for a person over the age of 18 to purchase or hire an air weapon or ammunition for an air weapon except from a person or place licensed as set out in (1B) below.

(1B) The conditions for licensing a person or place to sell or hire an air weapon or ammunition for an air weapon are to be set by the Scottish Parliament.''.'.

New clause 1—Provisions relating to the Scottish Parliament—

'The 1968 Act can be amended by the Scottish Parliament to introduce—

(a) a licensing scheme for the sale or hire of air weapons or ammunition for air weapons;

(b) a licensing scheme for the purchase or possession of air weapons or ammunition for air weapons;

(c) a ban or restriction on the sale, hire, purchase or possession of air weapons or ammunition for air weapons.'.

New clause 2—Matters relating to Scotland—

'(1) Section 26 and 27 so far as they extend to Scotland shall be regarded as within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

(2) The Scotland Act 1998 shall be amended as follows—

(3) In Schedule 5, Head B4, after ''1997'', insert—

''Exception

Regulation or control of the sale, possession or purchase of air weapons, or ammunition for air weapons.''.'.

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)

Amendment No. 2 would restrict the provisions of current airgun legislation to England and Wales and open the way for alternatives to be introduced in the Scottish Parliament. Amendment No. 3 would create a licensing scheme in the Scottish Parliament, similar to that proposed by the Government last week, insofar as it would license the vendors rather than the purchasers. The intention is that the licensing scheme introduced in the Scottish Parliament would allow more checking of purchasers by making it one of the conditions necessary for obtaining a vendor's licence. It would therefore affect the check on those owning air weapons, as we heard last week.  

New clause 1 is effectively a reverse Sewel motion. For the constitutionally minded, authority would remain at Westminster, but responsibility for this provision would transfer to the Scottish Parliament at this time. New clause 2 would devolve responsibility for air weapons for all time.

The amendments and new clauses are not constitutional meanderings. They would implement the correct air weapon licensing scheme in Scotland. England has a profound problem with firearm crime, and the Government are right to address it. We heard from the hon. Members for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and for Brent, South (Ms Butler) last week that handgun culture is growing in their constituencies and in many other parts of England. I shall come to that in due course.

Let us consider the differences in gun crime between Scotland and England. The last year for which we have information is 2003–04. In England, there were 68 firearm murders, 1,195 attempted murders and more than 10,000 firearm offences. If my memory serves me correctly, the police say that about 8,900 of those offences involved real firearms. In Scotland, there was one murder, four attempted murders and fewer than 200 firearm crimes, and real firearms were identified in 194 cases.

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North, Labour)

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be extremely accurate with the figures; he should remember that some 55 million people live in England, and only 5 million in Scotland. That is proportionate with the figures that he has given.

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)

The hon. Gentleman makes the valid point that proportionality should be taken into account, but England had 1,195 attempted murders and Scotland nowhere near 10 per cent. of that number over the same period, and England had 68 firearm murders but Scotland only one. Proportionality does not enter either equation. England has a specific difficulty with real firearm crime, and the Government are right to address it. Scotland's problem is primarily air weapon crime, and I shall explain why in a few moments.

I shall put the figures into context. There have been fewer firearm murders in Scotland in 10 years than there were in England in a single year. The statistics for crimes involving handguns, mentioned last week, are even more startling. England had 5,123 handgun crimes, including 35 murders, compared with 29 handgun crimes and no murders in Scotland over the same period. However, although Scotland had fewer than 200 crimes associated with identified firearms, it had 415 air weapon crimes—200 per cent. more.

Stephen McCabe (Birmingham, Hall Green, Labour)

I want to put a simple point to the hon. Gentleman. I understand clearly the case that he makes, but how concerned would he be if we were to restrict the legislation so that it applied only to England and Wales, and Scotland suffered a displacement effect as criminals moved north to enjoy protection that they would not have in England and Wales?

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)

There would be no displacement effect thanks to weaker legislation; we are proposing   tougher legislation. I suspect that if there were displacement, and I doubt there will be, it would go the other way. Such crimes tend to be geographically specific; one would not travel from Dundee to Coventry to fire an air weapon. One would fire it where one had it.

The proposals would effectively devolve airgun legislation to the Scottish Parliament so that an effective licensing scheme can be introduced. When the initial legislation was published, we felt that the provisions for air weapons did not go far enough. The Government amendments last week made some progress but cover only vendors, not purchasers. If any of the options that we have proposed were accepted by the Government and the Committee, they would allow the Scottish Parliament to put in place a licensing scheme directed more at the purchaser than the vendor. We believe that that is vitally important.

Secondly, the devolution of the airgun legislation would offer an appropriate licensing scheme. Again, some concession was made last week but there was concern that the Bill was a catch-all piece of legislation and that sports clubs, target shooters, airsoft members, and those who used their weapons for vermin control and so on might be caught. We are convinced that if an appropriate licensing scheme were put in place in Scotland to take the Scottish circumstances into consideration, it would be a sensitive licensing scheme that would allow those entitled to hold, buy or hire air weapons or ammunition to do so, and restrict only those who were not entitled to have them.

Two issues were raised last week that are related to this matter. In the final sitting, the Minister suggested in answer to a question that I put that, and I paraphrase, she sought a balance between utility and cost within the practicality of introducing a licensing scheme and the bureaucracy and cost associated with it. One of the Tory Members—I believe that it was the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Djanogly)—mentioned the number of air weapons in circulation. I think that the figure given was 7 million, with perhaps 650,000 in Scotland.

My recollection of being a child is that a large number of air weapons, air rifles and pistols were in people's garages and garden sheds with bent barrels, dismantled bits and rusted barrels, and they were utterly unserviceable. I suspect that the number of serviceable weapons is rather less than the 7 million suggested and that the large majority of those are in the hands of responsible people who would volunteer anyway to enter into a licensing system or scheme. The licensing scheme would also open up the opportunity for a voluntary disposal system for old and non-functional weapons that people no longer require or wish to have in their possession. For all those reasons, we believe that the introduction of a licensing scheme in Scotland is appropriate.

The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, North (Jim Sheridan) raised a point a while ago about the difference between Scotland and England. I have spoken to a number of serving police officers, including some senior ones, and they tell me that their concern over real gun crime is negligible in some   force areas. They are concerned about imitations, knives and air weapons. We believe in the devolution of airgun legislation to Scotland to introduce an appropriate licensing system for Scotland and to toughen up the legislation so that it is not merely the vendor who is licensed. A licence on the purchaser, holder or owner would be the most appropriate course of action, and I hope that the Committee will accept those recommendations.

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North, Labour)

I ask colleagues on both sides to reject the amendments in the name of the Scottish Nationalist party on the basis that they are as totally irrelevant to the Committee as they are to the people of Scotland, who merely want safe, effective legislation, which is what the Government propose.

Jonathan Djanogly (Shadow Solicitor General (Also Assists Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs), (Assist the Home Affairs Team); Huntingdon, Conservative)

We are not in favour of devolving these powers to Scotland. Nor are we in favour of a licensing scheme, which we believe would be impractical.

The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) spoke about a wide range of issues, many of which I shall address in the clause stand part debate, so, if he does not mind, he will have to wait until then. I want to put on the record the fact that we will not support the amendment.

John Thurso (Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland (And Transport), Scotland; Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat)

I have often said in Committee and when discussing statutory instruments that what can be devolved should be devolved. In this instance, however, close examination suggests that the negative consequences of having a system in Scotland that is separate from that of the rest of the United Kingdom would not be helpful, so although I sympathise with the amendment's intention, we will resist it.

Hazel Blears (Minister of State (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Home Office; Salford, Labour)

Despite his imaginative use of a reverse-Sewel provision, I am afraid that the hon. Member for Dundee, East has found that the vast majority of Committee members are against him. I, too, urge the Committee to resist his amendments. Firearms are a reserved matter for a very good reason; we recognise the ease of movement across the border between England and Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Steve McCabe) made that very point. As he said, guns can easily be transferred between the countries, resulting in loopholes that can be exploited by people who want to misuse weapons. It is therefore right that we have a unified system.

Since the dreadful incident involving the young child Andrew Morton, I have been working extremely closely with Scottish Ministers to ensure that we toughen up the law not only in Scotland, but throughout Great Britain. Air weapon misuse is a problem for us. The vast majority of people use their guns responsibly, but air weapon misuse has been increasing, so it was important to table the new amendments that we discussed last week to provide that weapons can be sold only through a registered firearms dealer. That will mean that only responsible retailers will be able to sell air weapons, and it will stop   the casual, anonymous purchases that lead to the vast majority of problems caused by air weapons.

Air weapons will need to be sold face to face rather than through mail order or the internet. The provisions will mean that we have the balance about right. Much of the Bill is about achieving a balance. The hon. Gentleman's suggestions would lead to huge bureaucracy and would not necessarily be effective in enforcing the responsible use of weapons, which we all want, or in bearing down on the mischief of irresponsible use. I ask him to withdraw his amendment.

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)

The Minister suggested that guns could be transported between Scotland and England if the legislation was not uniform. Of course, that is true. I suggest most respectfully, however, that railways are also devolved, and that trains move between countries. It is not a particularly strong argument.

John Thurso (Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland (And Transport), Scotland; Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat)

May I correct the hon. Gentleman, as I have had the Liberal Democrat party's transport brief? The railways are devolved only in as much as they are entirely within Scotland.

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)

The hon. Gentleman's point is well made.

The Minister suggested that non-uniform legislation might lead to a loophole and to guns being moved across borders, but we are suggesting tougher, not weaker, legislation in Scotland. I hope that all hon. Members recognise that. In light of what various hon. and right hon. Members have said, however, it would be foolish to press my amendment to a vote, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Jonathan Djanogly (Shadow Solicitor General (Also Assists Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs), (Assist the Home Affairs Team); Huntingdon, Conservative)

I reiterate that we strongly believe in the need to reduce violent crime and in taking all measures necessary to do that. Our concern is that much of the content of the clauses that relate to firearms will not reduce gun crime in practice. The effective way to reduce violent crime in communities and on the streets where gun crime and gun culture pose such a threat and airguns are misused is to enforce existing laws, not to introduce legislation that will complicate the law in ways more likely to affect the law-abiding majority than the criminals.

Will the clause's clamp-down on 17-year-olds owning air weapons combat the gun culture that we are all so concerned about? We do not think so. Being tough on crime means reducing crime in practice, not just talking tough on crime in Committee Rooms when discussing clauses that are not going to do their job. Since we last discussed the clause, the Minister has not explained how it is likely to reduce violent crime. Following our consultation on the issue, we believe that it should be removed from the Bill. That view has wide-ranging support from those who practise the sport, including the British Association for Shooting   and Conservation, which has 123,000 members, and the British Shooting Sports Council, the umbrella organisation for the major shooting associations in the United Kingdom, which represents, through direct membership or as a result of affiliation to associations, the interests of some 750,000 certificate holders and an even greater number of other people.

Stephen McCabe (Birmingham, Hall Green, Labour)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that he is hardly describing utterly independent and impartial organisations? He is describing people who have a vested interest in the sale, maintenance and use of weapons, so naturally it makes sense to them to allow the widest possible population of users.

Jonathan Djanogly (Shadow Solicitor General (Also Assists Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs), (Assist the Home Affairs Team); Huntingdon, Conservative)

John Thurso (Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland (And Transport), Scotland; Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat)

I have a simple question that arises from Thursday afternoon's debate on the clause, in which I made it clear that I was

''not convinced that any weapon of any kind should be available by mail order or over the internet.''—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 20 October 2005; c. 199.]

That remains my view. However, at the weekend I did some research and a point was put to me that I should like the Minister to consider: for those resident in the northern isles, and, I suspect, also for those resident in the western isles, there is only one registered dealer who—I shall try to put this tactfully—has difficulty in fulfilling orders in a timeous fashion. At the moment, those who purchase either air weapons or air ammunition may do so by mail order, which will be denied to them. They are concerned that that will have a negative impact.

There is clearly very low—if any—relevant crime in the areas that I am concerned about. I do not expect an answer today, but will the Minister reflect on the matter to see whether the problem can be alleviated?

Hazel Blears (Minister of State (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Home Office; Salford, Labour)

The clause is just one of a number of measures aimed at addressing the mischief of the misuse of air weapons. We do not say that increasing the age from 17 to 18 will of itself solve the problem, but it is important. I am sure that the hon. Member for Huntingdon would acknowledge the need for the law to encompass a range of measures and police powers to make our communities as safe as they can be.

The misuse of air weapons is a significant problem. It causes huge distress to the public. In an earlier discussion about equivalence I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South who talked about the fact that people who misuse air weapons could terrify people, particularly older people, in their properties and that it was not equivalent to being gently reprimanded with a cricket bat—I think that was what she said—or a slingshot, or anything analogous.

In 2003–04 air weapons were used in 13,756 crimes, so the problem is not one of low-level behaviour. Those figures show an increase of 59 per cent. over the last seven or eight years. There were 2,400 cases of injury, including 156 cases of serious injury. Hon. Members must be aware that we are trying to deal with a significant and serious problem.

The hon. Member for Huntingdon is right. We do need to enforce existing laws, but, as a responsible Government, we must also identify problems and determine what measures are appropriate to deal with them.

Sammy Wilson (East Antrim, DUP)

Given the statistics, the Minister must have some idea of the age of the people engaged in those crimes or the number of cases in which there were injuries. We need that information in order to ascertain whether raising the age limit from 17 to 18 is likely to reduce the number of crimes or the number of injuries. The clause will have no effect if crimes are committed and injuries caused by people over 18. Nor will the clause make any difference to the statistics if the people involved are under 17 and possess the guns legally—

Joe Benton (Bootle, Labour)

Order. This is becoming quite a lengthy intervention.  

Hazel Blears (Minister of State (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Home Office; Salford, Labour)

I do not have a breakdown of the statistics; the figures are not available to me. Most hon. Members accept, however, that there is a problem with the misuse of air weapons, particularly among some young people in some areas of our country. I entirely take the point made by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso). There might well be little of this sort of problem in the western isles and the northern isles, but it is a significant issue for many constituents in some of our cities and towns.

Young people will still be able to use air weapons in controlled conditions. Committee members will see from the matrix that I circulated, as I promised I would, that young people will be able to use air weapons if they belong to a rife or pistol club or a cadet corps, if they are shooting on a miniature rifle range, if they are supervised by someone of 21 years of age or more, or if they are on private premises with the consent of the occupier. This is not a draconian measure that says that responsible young people should never have access to air weapons. As my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, North said, we want practical and effective legislation that works, which is exactly what the legislation is intended to be.

Much of the Bill is about trying to reduce violent crime and to change behaviour. The hon. Member for Huntingdon asked whether we would keep behaviour under review and see where problems could emerge. Of course we will. We are implementing measures that attack the mischief of people who want to act irresponsibly, but keep the situation under review if they change their behaviour.

Jonathan Djanogly (Shadow Solicitor General (Also Assists Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs), (Assist the Home Affairs Team); Huntingdon, Conservative)

The Minister said that she had no figures for the numbers of crimes committed with air rifles by people under the age of 18. Two years ago, the Government increased the age limit to 17. If she has no figures for what has happened in the meantime, on what basis is she increasing the age limit now? That is what we are trying to get at.

Hazel Blears (Minister of State (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Home Office; Salford, Labour)

There is an age limit of 18 for the purchase of knives, as hon. Members will see when we come to the debate on knives. Again, there may well be responsible young people who want to purchase knives. We are trying to ensure that the legislation governing the possession of weapons that could be misused is coherent while also providing that the people who want to use them responsibly are perfectly entitled to do so.

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the BASC and responsible shooters have a right to have their voices heard. The Bill is about trying to strike a balance between not bearing down too heavily on the legitimate and responsible use of weapons and acknowledging that the misuse of air weapons causes huge distress, injury and damage to families in many of our communities.

Jonathan Djanogly (Shadow Solicitor General (Also Assists Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs), (Assist the Home Affairs Team); Huntingdon, Conservative)

I do not deny that.

Hazel Blears (Minister of State (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Home Office; Salford, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman says that he does not deny that. This is one of a range of measures to try to ensure that we address the very real and significant problems of misuse that affect our communities. The   clause will help us to do that. It will not achieve our policy directive on its own, but, taken with the other provisions, I genuinely believe that it will help us to bear down on the problem that I described.

The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross talked about an issue that has practical implications. I do not know whether any other premises in his area could become registered firearms dealers, but I believe that the licence fee will be £150. It may well be possible for someone else to become a registered firearms dealer, but I will see whether there are any other provisions that we might be able to consider. I understand his point, but, as I said to the hon. Member for Dundee, East, if there were a series of exceptions, we might end up with loopholes in the law. I am not suggesting that people go up to the western isles to make illegitimate purchases of air weapons—I am sure that there are many more pleasant reasons for visiting the area—but I shall look into the issue.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 13, Noes 4.