New Clause 1 - Protection of freedom of expression
Racial and Religious Hatred Bill
1:30 pm
Paul Goggins (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Home Office; Wythenshawe and Sale East, Labour)
The hon. Gentleman is right; this is interesting territory, which we have covered in earlier debates. He invites me to make the Government’s position clear, and I do so again: it is not our intention that jokes, lampooning, serious or robust comments about religious belief, proselytising, or preaching would be covered in court by that offence. However, he challenges the Committee to find a way of expressing that, and of making it perfectly clear that legitimate comment can be made and will not be caught by the legislation without creating additional loopholes and compromising the offence that we seek to introduce.
Reading the scriptures, however robust the language of the passage might be, will not caught by this legislation. However, if we stated that in the Bill, someone could use words directly from scripture in a context and with an intention to incite hatred. That is our dilemma. In principle, I would be happy to for the Bill to say that nothing in it means that people cannot tell jokes or quote from the scriptures. The Home Secretary indicated that on Second Reading The problem is that if we word that too loosely, we create a loophole. That is the dilemma that I face, as the Minister, and which we face as a Committee.
My belief is that new clause 1 does not get the balance right, which is why I cannot support it, and why I shall ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw it. Of itself, expressing dislike of a religious or belief system would not be caught by the Bill. However, by using words in a certain way, somebody may be able to argue that they have a defence because of what is in the Bill, but are getting away with the serious offence of inciting hatred.
The other point that is worth making is that the new clause would weaken the race-hate legislation. The hon. Gentleman would acknowledge, I think, that it would change the test relating to race-hate, and that is not something that we would seek to do through this Bill. In principle, I do not have a problem with including something in the Bill that would give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that he seeks, but I am not content to include something that would, at the same time, create a loophole, allowing people to incite hatred about people because of their religious belief. That is the dilemma that we face, and I am afraid that the new clause does not help us.