Clause 13

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 11:00 am on 25 April 2006.

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Introduction

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Photo of Laurence Robertson Laurence Robertson Shadow Minister (Northern Ireland)

I am grateful to you, Mr. Taylor, for the opportunity to discuss this clause briefly. Under the legislation, donations to political parties in Northern Ireland from the Republic of Ireland will still be permitted. In no way do I want to make a party political point, but the concern is that donations from the Republic benefit certain political parties to the exclusion of others. The objective of much of our debate, and legislation that has been introduced through statutory instruments and primary legislation, is to normalise the situation between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I welcome the attempts to normalise and, where possible, make comparable the situation. Some of this legislation works towards that. One aspect that does not is the provision for donations to political parties in Northern Ireland to come from donors in the south.

There is a further complication. It is possible for people who live abroad—in America, for example—to make donations to political parties in Northern Ireland not necessarily directly, but through citizens of the Republic. That is a concern. I would have liked to limit the amount of time for which the provision exists, stating that from, let us say, 2010, such donations would no longer be acceptable.

The Government’s explanation for allowing donations from the south to be made to the north is that the two countries are inextricably linked, and one party at least is registered in both countries, so it is acceptable. However, if we are moving towards normalisation and equalisation, I do not think that it is acceptable for that situation to continue. Therefore, I am concerned that the Government seem to be prepared to let it carry on indefinitely, whereas I would have sought to end it—not necessarily today or tomorrow, but certainly by putting a three or four-year limit on the arrangement. I look forward to hearing other hon. Members comments, because I know that the issue is of concern to a number of parties in Northern Ireland, and to finding out what the Minister has to say about the situation.

Photo of Alasdair McDonnell Alasdair McDonnell Shadow Spokesperson (Work and Pensions), Shadow SDLP Spokesperson (Health), Shadow Spokesperson (Education), Shadow Spokesperson (Treasury)

I very much welcome the fact that, in many ways, this part of the Bill represents a sensible way forward. Some would argue that the same rules on disclosure should apply to Northern Ireland as to Britain. There are good reasons why that is not the case for now. The simple reason is that Northern Ireland is not the same as Britain at present. Political life, in particular, is very different. Sectarianism, intimidation, extortion and violence all have a role to play in that difference, and they played a significant role in creating it. That is why the Committee on Standards in Public Life originally asked the Government to consider a short-term and reviewable exemption from the recording requirements in respect of donations to political parties in Northern Ireland.

Matters have improved in Northern Ireland, and I am grateful for that, but violence, sectarianism, intimidation and extortion still remain fairly serious problems. For example, during the Whiterock riots of last year, over a period of three days 146 blast bombs were thrown, 115 shots were fired, 116 vehicles were hijacked and 81 policemen and women were injured. Sectarianism remains a problem. Some 700 incidents took place in a few months last year, amounting to about five a day. Paramilitary extortion remains a big problem. In spite of that, two thirds of cases could not be pursued because the complainant did not want the police to take action. In many cases, the complainant will not approach the police at all. All that affects people’s willingness openly to support or donate to political parties, and to contribute the finance necessary to support genuine democracy and political life. Many business men would like to operate on a cross-community basis and do not particularly want to be strongly identified with one particular party.

Photo of Sylvia Hermon Sylvia Hermon UUP, North Down

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that while we are trying to instil confidence in the political system, the secrecy that surrounds donations and loans to political parties undermines it? Extortion is a criminal offence, and it is about time that people reported it and co-operated with the police. Does he not agree that openness is the way to build confidence in our political system at home?

Photo of Alasdair McDonnell Alasdair McDonnell Shadow Spokesperson (Work and Pensions), Shadow SDLP Spokesperson (Health), Shadow Spokesperson (Education), Shadow Spokesperson (Treasury)

I totally agree with the hon. Lady—in a normal society. The difficulty is that we still have a somewhat abnormal society. While others might not be, I am fully conscious that many people who would want to support me, or have done so, or have at times supported my party, are subject to threats and intimidation from sources of a paramilitary nature. I do not wish to subject people to that.

My political party needs money. It is an open and honest party that survives on the votes of its supporters and on small donations from a series of supporters. There is nothing underhand or dishonest about where we obtain our funds. My point is that, in the short term, to declare our sources openly is to put those responsible at high risk. I make that point genuinely and sincerely, and if people wish to disagree I regret that. However, I am not making it for any underhand reason. People are threatened and intimidated, and I emphasise that this has happened to my party’s donors. For obvious reasons, I do not wish to go into detail and expose them further.

It would have been reasonable to continue to exempt Northern Ireland political parties from reporting requirements beyond 31 October 2007. However, we understand that Parliament wants greater transparency. For that reason, we accept that donations above £5,000 should be reported to the Electoral Commission, although we are adamant that they should not be made public.

However, we have concerns even at this stage, as we know that from time to time paramilitaries have tried to infiltrate public bodies. For example, in October 2004, a member of the Real IRA, one of the dissident groups, was accessing personal information from the  database of the Royal Victoria hospital. That is a concern. From that perspective, we would be keen to have information lodged in London, where it might be safer, rather than in an office in Belfast.

In the light of the intervention by the hon. Member for North Down, I emphasise that the SDLP is not in any way in favour of unregulated political donations. We accept the ban on foreign donations, as long as Irish citizens and Irish companies can donate. Further, and critically, we advocate the simplest and most effective of all regulation, a ban to ban all—

Photo of David Taylor David Taylor Labour, North West Leicestershire

Order. The debate is on clause 13 stand part. I am allowing the hon. Member to make comments on other clauses in part 4 on the understanding that they are not repeated when those clauses arise, but I request that he conclude his remarks.

Photo of Lembit Öpik Lembit Öpik Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Affairs, Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Welsh Affairs

The proposed amendment aims to hold the Government to their word. They have said that they want the final disapplication period to end on 31 October 2010 and have planned for that in clause 17. However, they are notorious for introducing plan Bs. We are concerned about that, and are therefore sympathetic to the amendment.

Photo of David Taylor David Taylor Labour, North West Leicestershire

Order. I confirm again that we are dealing with clause 13 stand part. We have not reached the Government amendment on clause 15, to which I believe the hon. Member may be referring.

Photo of Lembit Öpik Lembit Öpik Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Affairs, Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Welsh Affairs

In which case, I shall hold off. As you rightly say, Mr. Taylor, my points would be better made on clause 15, so I shall wait until then.

Photo of Ben Wallace Ben Wallace Conservative, Lancaster and Wyre

I want briefly to comment on clause 13. I am conscious of your comments, Mr. Taylor, about other clauses. I could speak to clause 18, but as there are no amendments down for that clause, perhaps it would be best to speak in this stand part debate.

The amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury would put a time limit on the power of clause 18; that is, when it would cease to have effect. Clause 18 raises some concerns, in that no sooner have we passed the legislation than much of it can be changed by order—within two months, in fact—by the Secretary of State. As the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said, the Government are notorious for suddenly coming up with a plan B. Therefore, one sometimes wonders what this is all for if within two months it can be changed by statutory instrument.

In speaking to the amendment and clause 13 itself, I ask whether it is right that the clause is put in to allow clause 18 to come into effect and remove all the work that might be done in this Committee and perhaps in  another place. I do not like having so many clauses that allow legislation to be changed so soon after it has gone through the House. In principle, that is wrong. Therefore, clause 13 and clause 18, to which it leads, should be opposed.

Photo of David Taylor David Taylor Labour, North West Leicestershire

Order. I should point out that amendment No. 10 has not been moved.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Education) 11:30, 25 April 2006

Briefly, I want to echo the points made by the hon. Member for North Down. The more transparency there is about political donations, the better, especially in the current climate, where there is great suspicion over how some parties have raised money and why people have donated to them. It is important for us all that there is a degree of transparency.

I do not accept the argument of the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Dr. McDonnell). He said that Northern Ireland is different and that there is intimidation, extortion, violence, blast bombs and shots—he went through a whole catalogue of things. It is strange that someone who has lectured us about the fact that everyone has changed so much should use that convenient argument as an excuse for secrecy over political donations.

Photo of Alasdair McDonnell Alasdair McDonnell Shadow Spokesperson (Work and Pensions), Shadow SDLP Spokesperson (Health), Shadow Spokesperson (Education), Shadow Spokesperson (Treasury)

All I want to do is inquire whether the hon. Gentleman is denying the facts that I have placed before the Committee. The facts are there as facts and they cannot be denied.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Education)

I am not denying those facts, but they are no excuse for secrecy over party political donations. Some business men make their party political affiliations well known, but none has faced intimidation or been put under pressure because people knew the parties to which they donated or were affiliated. It is important that there is a degree of transparency.

The other issue is how donations to political parties can be channelled from the Irish Republic. Given that such donations are likely to benefit one party alone—Sinn Fein—I would have thought that the hon. Member for Belfast, South was keen to close that conduit of funds. As has been said, many of Sinn Fein’s friends from across the world can channel funds through sympathisers in the Irish Republic and so add to Sinn Fein’s coffers. When one looks at the army—I use the word advisedly—that Sinn Fein can put out during elections, one sees that some of its members are paid daily to canvass areas and sometimes re-canvass them four or five times.

Sinn Fein councillors on Belfast city council say that they are allocated 30 people to canvass and re-canvass areas to ensure that people are registered and that their message gets across. Such organisation requires huge funding and disadvantages the hon. Gentleman’s party perhaps even more than mine, because he is in direct competition with Sinn Fein.

Photo of Laurence Robertson Laurence Robertson Shadow Minister (Northern Ireland)

The hon. Gentleman will not be aware of a conversation that I had with Mr. Seamus Mallon, a former Member of the House. He told me  that Sinn Fein had 200 paid activists in his area, and that is from a nationalist politician, not a Unionist politician.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Education)

That is exactly the point that I am trying to make and why I find the attitude of the hon. Member for Belfast, South so strange. The less transparency there is about funding arrangements or conduits from the Irish Republic to parties in Northern Ireland—

Photo of David Taylor David Taylor Labour, North West Leicestershire

Order. The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say that this is a clause stand part debate. Clause 13 relates to periods of introduction, but I have allowed people a little latitude to refer to the clauses that it applies to. I ask him to keep his remarks within those boundaries.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Education)

Thank you for that leeway, Mr. Taylor. I will draw my remarks to a close. The provisions ought to be removed as soon as possible, so that the laws on political funding in Northern Ireland can be brought into line with those in the rest of the United Kingdom as quickly as possible.

Photo of David Hanson David Hanson The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office

The clause states the commencement dates for the Bill’s provisions relating to donations. I should make it clear to the Committee that the Government wish to see the situation in Northern Ireland regulated as quickly as possible to the same level as in the rest of the United Kingdom. We should move to a situation of openness and transparency in political party funding and donations.

Passing the Bill requires the rules on permissible donors and the declaration of accepted donations to the Electoral Commission to be brought into line with rules for the rest of the United Kingdom at the earliest opportunity. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South has pointed out several areas of potential intimidation, and we are acutely aware that although we are working toward and wish to see the normalisation of the political process in Northern Ireland, we are not quite there yet.

I recognise that there are still potential issues of intimidation and threats, and that individuals in Northern Ireland still cannot openly declare their funding support for any political party. Due to a range of potential threats, they cannot publish fully their financial support in the name of transparency. Clause 13 will establish a transitional period from November 2007 to October 2010, at the end of which I hope that Northern Ireland will move to full transparency. As Committee members will be aware, clause 13 and later clauses create the potential for donation declarations to the Electoral Commission to be held but not published until such time as the Secretary of State and I feel it appropriate to recommend otherwise.

Photo of Lembit Öpik Lembit Öpik Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Affairs, Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Welsh Affairs

But can the Minister not see the irony in that? All that paramilitary organisations must do to ensure that the Government never implement a change is carry on intimidating people who donate to other parties.

Photo of David Hanson David Hanson The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office

The hon. Gentleman makes a point that could undoubtedly be accepted by the Committee. However, it is my hope that the Committee, the Government and all political parties in Northern Ireland will accept that during the next three to four years, political party and election funding in Northern Ireland could move from having no regulation—it is entirely different from the rest of the United Kingdom in that it has no regulation of foreign donations—to having regulation on both foreign donations and political party funding donations, as in the rest of the United Kingdom. Because of Northern Ireland’s special circumstances, we will move to full transparency over time. We have determined in the Bill that that period will last until 2010, but it could be shorter if the situation removes itself.

I accept that the situation that the hon. Gentleman has described could indeed happen, but I do not suspect that the Government will be in that position in due course. I believe that Northern Ireland is moving toward being a normal society. Tomorrow, the Independent Monitoring Commission report on the Provisional IRA and progress on decommissioning will be published. I believe that that will show further progress, and that Northern Ireland is moving toward being a more normal society. It is my hope that it will move speedily.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Education)

Most policies in Northern Ireland are subject to equality impact assessments. Will the Minister tell us whether an equality impact assessment has been carried out for the legislation on foreign donations and what its outcome was?

Photo of David Hanson David Hanson The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office

I am happy to confirm for the hon. Gentleman that an equality assessment on the draft legislation was undertaken. I do not have the details of the outcome before me, but I would not have introduced the legislation if it was discriminatory in any way. I hope that that satisfies him.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Education)

Does the Minister accept that the section on foreign donations will benefit exclusively nationalist and, particularly, republican parties and therefore could not have met the conditions in the equality impact assessment.

Photo of David Hanson David Hanson The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office

No, I do not accept that. I believe that the ban on foreign donations will occur, but, as was referred to by the hon. Gentleman, we have made an exception for the special situation in Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. We have allowed eligible individuals and bodies that donate to Irish political parties to continue to donate to parties in the north.

Let me put it this way to the hon. Gentleman: I do not know what the 3 million people who live in the Irish Republic will do with their donations—if they wish to make any—and to which political parties in the north they would make them. They might support the Ulster Unionist party or the Democratic Unionist party in the Republic. They might support the Social Democratic and Labour party or, indeed, Sinn Fein. They might support a range of parties.

I cannot speak for the 3 million people in the Republic and their donating habits. The point is that because of the special relationship and the Good Friday agreement, we have maintained that position. We will come on to amendments relating to it in later clauses, and I would prefer to discuss such matters at that stage.

The Irish Government themselves have indicated that they are looking at their own political funding regime. They have no imminent plans to introduce such proposals, but they are looking at the possibility. In the event of such changes arising, and under clause 13 and other powers in the Bill, we could reflect those changes in legislation by order, should we so wish. Certainly, Northern Ireland Office officials are in discussion with Irish Government officials about the joint objective of both Governments, which is to ensure political transparency in donations and that foreign donations from outside of the island of Ireland are banned, as they are in the United Kingdom.

Photo of David Taylor David Taylor Labour, North West Leicestershire

I have allowed the Minister to continue with remarks that more properly relate to clause 15 and others, but I trust that such remarks will not be repeated at length in subsequent debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.