Don Foster (Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media & Sport, Culture, Media & Sport; Bath, Liberal Democrat)

As subsequent Government amendments cover the same point as amendment No. 12 and are more effective, I shall not proceed with it.

Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

I beg to move amendment No. 97, in clause 29, page 21, line 23, at end insert—

‘(3A)A person does not commit an offence under subsection (1) (whether actual or inchoate) only by virtue of making facilities available in connection with electronic communication or the storage of electronic data.

(3B)Where a person who provides services for electronic communication or for the storage of electronic data discovers that they are being used in connection with the commission of an offence under subsection (1), the defence in subsection (3A) does not apply in respect of continued provision of the services after the shortest time reasonably required to withdraw them.’.

David Amess (Southend West, Conservative)

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment No. 98.

Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

Amendment No. 98 provides that the offence of ticket touting in clause 29 may be committed outside the UK. The intention is to target internet touting in particular and to provide a deterrent against those minded to move their unlawful business offshore to evade liability.

Amendment No. 97 clarifies the position in relation to ticket touting via the internet. It provides internet service providers with defences to ensure that they are not accused unfairly of being an accessory to our new ticket touting offence, while also ensuring that the defences do not allow web companies to turn a blind eye to offences that are being committed via their sites.

Such defences are required to provide effective implementation of the e-commerce directive, and are therefore required to ensure that clause 29 complies with EU law. These defences strike the right balance by ensuring that certain internet companies will not be found guilty of an offence when they have unwittingly advertised tickets for sale or have facilitated the sale of tickets, but such companies must act expeditiously to remove any information from their site that contravenes clause 29 in order to avoid liability.

We believe that the amendment strikes an appropriate balance between cracking down on people who simply turn a blind eye to offences that they are helping to facilitate, and ensuring that responsible service providers are not unfairly penalised.

Hugh Robertson (Shadow Minister (Sport), The Family & Culture, Media & Sport; Faversham & Mid Kent, Conservative)

I shall take a few moments of the Committee’s time to explore with the Minister the question of ticket touting, not least because several organisations, which he will know, have approached me and the hon. Member for Bath, as I am sure they have approached the Minister, about the question of ticket touting in the run-up to the 2012 Olympics and the effect that it has on other sports.

The Minister will be aware that there are some very powerful arguments in favour of a more general ban than the one proposed in the Bill. There is the question of security. He will know that the cricket authorities are very worried about the security of some of the touring teams that are due to come to these shores in the next few years. There is also the question of public order and extra policing outside the ground, and of the cost to the national governing bodies of sport that must police ticket touting because it is not yet illegal.

There is also the knock-on effect that ticket touting has on the availability of tickets for real fans. I am told that there is now a very considerable industry whereby firms speed dial and hold the numbers when tickets are released on the market, thereby denying access to ordinary sports fans.

We should also consider the proceeds of crime. The National Criminal Intelligence Service reports that ticket touts are very often part of a much wider criminal operation, and the four sport consortia reckon that ticket touting is now part of a vast organised criminal business. I am told that it can   account for some £100 million a year, and that more than 2.2 million tickets worldwide now exchange hands on the black market. Clearly, anyone buying those tickets suffers from a total lack of guarantee over the security of the purchase. Indeed, the practice is outlawed in Scotland. This is not the time for a wider debate, but I wish to tease out the Minister’s thoughts and those of his Department on whether, in view of the fact that the argument has been accepted for the London 2012 Olympics, we need to consider preparing the way for widening the regulations.

Patrick McFadden (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

I am sure that the Committee supports the aim of clause 29, which is to ensure that tickets are sold properly and honestly, and that they go to genuine sports fans. The last thing we want is for the Olympic games to be supported by the entire country but for the tickets to be sold in a way that dilutes or erodes that support.

The Minister will be familiar with some of the practices of ticket touts. They do not necessarily ask a huge price for the ticket, but may offer a tee-shirt or scarf for a large sum and an ostensibly free ticket. I understand that the clause deals with that problem, not allowing such practices in the selling of Olympic tickets. However, given that we are acting to protect tickets for the games, we have the opportunity to consider some of the touting practices that take place at UK events outwith the Olympics but in Olympic sports.

Would it not be a contradiction to take preventive and protective measures for Olympic sports at the Olympic games but to allow such practices to take place at other events? Given that the Minister’s Department is rightly acting to protect the Olympic games, I ask him to elaborate a little on how he proposes dealing with non-Olympic events.

Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

Hon. Members were right to say that we have received representations from many sports. The Secretary of State is hosting a meeting on 10 November to talk about ticket touting. We want to start a dialogue between the various sports.

Ticket touting is a problem not only for sport: it goes on beyond sport. That is another matter that will have to be factored into a review of the law; we have not ruled it out. What we are doing for the IOC has been forced upon us; that is what we are dealing with now, and I have no doubt that it will be good experience for us when responding to what my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-East said about other sporting events and the wider issue of ticket touting.

There is no doubt that touting happens. One only has to look at the prices on eBay for tickets to the last test match to see what goes on. It was the first time that tickets had sold out for all five days, and tickets for the fifth day were getting huge prices on eBay. From my point of view, as a Sports Minister, that money is going out of the game. A lot of that money would have gone back into the game if the extra money paid for the tickets had been part of the game’s revenue stream.

We have to explore a number of areas to ensure that the fan—the punter—and the sports get a fair deal. Touting is exploitation, but the money does not go back into sport. It needs serious consideration. We will start that dialogue on 10 November by responding to some of the representations that have been made. We have to move forward, and I hope that that dialogue will pave the way for further legislation.