Clause 10 - Enforcement
Health Bill
5:30 pm
Steve Webb (Shadow Secretary of State for Health, Health; Northavon, Liberal Democrat)
I beg to move amendment No. 76, in clause 10, page 6, line 15, at end insert—
‘()In making regulations for the purposes of this Part, the appropriate national authority shall consult with organisations representing those enforcing this legislation.’.
We continue with the subject of offences, but are moving on to enforcement. As the Committee will be aware, the clause deals with which national authorities have responsibility for enforcement and to whom those responsibilities may be delegated. There is talk of an authorised officer doing the enforcement.
The purpose of the amendment is to stress to the Minister that we are keen for regulations on how enforcement should take place to be drawn up in close co-operation with, as the amendment says,
“organisations representing those enforcing this legislation.”
We have in mind groups such as the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health and the Local Government Association—the front-line staff with the expertise from which we hope the Government will benefit. We had an exchange in which the Minister said that her instinct is that those people know all about fixed penalty notices. That was the tenor of her remarks. The response was that the associations have said that their people do not do that kind of thing and that this is new territory for them.
A number of issues are involved. I shall try not to repeat what has been said, but clearly some of it is germane to why we need to listen to organisations, certainly on safety. Let us imagine a crowded pub—we are getting slightly obsessed with pubs, but this is an obvious example—where people are fairly well oiled and more than one person is smoking. In a way, if there is just a lone smoker, enforcement is not so much trouble, because there will be much more peer pressure. However, it will be harder to approach a group of smokers, so in such a case we should assume that there would be not one environmental health officer, but two or more.
As I understand the clause, environmental health officers do not necessarily have police powers, such as the power of arrest or power to demand identification, but it would be helpful if we were slightly clearer about that. The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health is concerned that a spot fine will be ineffective
“unless it is linked to police powers to require the production of identification, detain and if necessary arrest offenders.”
It is referring to the risks to enforcement staff. Clearly, we do not want to put enforcement staff in a dangerous position, so I hope that when organisations make representations to the Minister, the Government take account of them.
In parentheses, I should say that when the amendment says, “shall consult with”, implicit is “and shall take notice of what they say”, but I do not think that we will be able to include that in the Bill. There are precedents in relation to the smoking ban issue in which consultations were held but notice was not taken of the results. We want the Government to listen to, and act on, what the organisations say. We are highlighting concerns about safety and shortages of enforcement officers.
A recent survey conducted by the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health has revealed a national shortage of some 700 environmental health professionals throughout England, Wales and Scotland. Presumably, several hundred more will be required to enforce the legislation, so the question is where those people will come from.
I do not imagine that people will queue up to reply to an advertisement for people willing to spend their Friday nights going into crowded pubs, approaching drunks and asking them to put out their cigarettes or giving them fixed penalty notices. I support the legislation, but the Government will have to learn more from what the people on the front line are saying if they are going to get this right and enforce it effectively.
I appreciate that there is time before the regulations are introduced, as the amendment implies, but I would be grateful for any assurance from the Minister that she will listen to the professional institutes now. Given the shortage of environmental professionals, we need to train new people to do these jobs, which clearly will take a long time, so the sooner the Government listen and act on the recommendations of those professional bodies, the better.
We have not yet got to the bottom of the issue of enforcement officers asking for proof of identity, as we assume they will have to do. As I said, the CIEH has said that its enforcement officers need those powers. I do not know what pubs you go into, Lady Winterton, but many of the people I go to pubs with do not carry identity. They may have a credit card with their name on it, or a driving licence, although obviously we encourage people not to drink and drive, or they may not. Until the happy day arrives when the Government require us to produce an ID card when we buy a drink, it is not clear how enforcement will work.
What is an environmental health officer meant to do if he asks the name of someone who is smoking and that person comes up with a name but cannot prove it? Car drivers, for example, have to produce documents, so the car is a fixed reference point from which to determine a driver’s identity, as we have discussed. In the case of an individual, however, the amendment probes the question of how confrontational the environmental health officer will have to be in such circumstances. If someone gives an implausible identity, will the officer have to ask for proof? What are the powers to do that? The professional bodies have strong views that I hope the Minister will take into account.
I am aware of the broader debate to be had on the clause as a whole, so I shall not persist with my argument. I hope that the Minister will assure us that she already has plans to listen to what the professional bodies are saying and to take action to deal with the very serious shortage of people to enforce the legislation.
I have another point to make in parenthesis. Mention has already been made of the public being able to ring a number and report a smoker. How far will the work of the professionals who must enforce the provision be reactive and involve going to a known problem area to deal with problems and report them? In which case, will they have sufficient numbers to overcome those problems and how far will this be proactive, involving touring the bars and pubs to see what they can find, which is a very different model of enforcement?
Again, I hope that the Minister will listen to what the professional bodies believe to be the most effective way of enforcing the legislation, which I want enforcing just as much as she does.