Clause 9 - Offence of failing to prevent smoking in smoke-free place
Health Bill
5:15 pm
Steve Webb (Shadow Secretary of State for Health, Health; Northavon, Liberal Democrat)
I have a couple of observations to make. The tenor of Conservative Members’ remarks was that the clause could be too severe, particularly in relation to junior members of staff. I share the view that we do not want new, inexperienced junior members of staff to be put in a difficult position or to be unduly penalised. I therefore hope that the Minister will repeat the comments that she made at the start of the sitting, when she said that that is not what the clause means in terms of management and responsibility.
However, there is a contrary argument. Some suggest that the penalty is not severe enough and that it should be more severe. The rationale for that view is that in the Bill the manager of a premises who fails to prevent smoking is liable for a penalty of up to £200, whereas the maximum penalty in the Irish Republic is £2,000 and there is also a power to close the premises for three months, which is clearly very serious. The question is how seriously do we want licensees, landlords and managers to take the responsibilities in the clause?
We shall come to other enforcement issues, but there will clearly not be many enforcers and they will not be present much of the time, so the chances of being caught are pretty slim. My philosophy of criminal justice—I am sure that you have been dying to hear it, Lady Winterton—is that it is the fear of being caught, not the penalty, that is critical to ensuring compliance. In the present case, however, there is a low likelihood of being caught, because there are few officers who have to cover a lot of ground, perhaps late at night, so people will know that there are times when they will get away with the offence. If we combine a low likelihood of their getting caught with the fact that the penalty will be a couple of hundreds pound at the most, it makes me wonder whether the action to cope with the offence is sufficiently serious. Just as we want smokers and potential smokers to be subject to a cultural shift, so we want managers to be subject to a cultural shift so that the offence of breaching clause 9 provisions is taken seriously and the punishment is not regarded as a token slap on the wrist so that people feel that they can commit the offence again.
As for the point made by the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire, I worry less about the Division Lobbies in the Commons than about other premises because few enforcement officers will be allowed to carry a sword to enforce the law. Royal palaces are probably excluded from the Bill anyway, so that is not a particular concern. In ordinary circumstances, however, I am worried that little enforcement will take place.