Clause 5
Fraud Bill [Lords]
12:15 pm
Dominic Grieve (Shadow Attorney General & Shadow Spokesman On Community Cohesion, Law Officers (Assist the Home Affairs Team); Beaconsfield, Conservative)
The first two amendments in the group are probing amendments, but through them we seek to engage in debate on the definition of gain and loss.The Solicitor-General may well be able to reassure me, but my concern is that the definition of gain in subsection (3) specifically includes
“a gain by keeping what one has, as well as a gain by getting what one does not have.”
In ordinary parlance, a gain is normally obtaining something to add to what one already has. Saying that it actually means keeping what one already has raises a number of issues on which I would like further clarification from the Solicitor-General.
I understand that it is possible by dishonesty to avoid paying something to somebody else, thereby retaining it for oneself, but if one is doing that, one is causing the other person a loss. In what circumstances does the Solicitor-General envisage that a gain by keeping what one already has would not include causing a loss to someone else by not paying them what is their due? I simply ask whether subsections (3) and (4) are not in fact otiose and unnecessary.
Subsection (4) does the reverse of subsection (3). It states:
“‘Loss’ includes a loss by not getting what one might get, as well as a loss by parting with what one has.”
That fits precisely with my earlier point: if one prevents someone from getting something that they are entitled to, that is clearly a loss to that person; but what are the Government trying to cover by referring to a person not getting something that they might get? It refers, I suppose, to the chance of getting something. Perhaps that is what the Solicitor-General is aiming at. Iam slightly happier with the definition of loss in subsection (4) than with the need to particularise gain in the manner specified in subsection (3). The central issue is the circumstances in which one might gain by keeping something that one already has when that does not cause a loss to another person.