David Chaytor (Bury North, Labour)

I beg to move amendment No. 224, in clause 32, page 23, leave out lines 13 to 15 and insert—

‘(3) The function of a parent council is to assist the governing body in its consideration of matters arising for determination by the governing body in the exercise of its powers.'.

Frank Cook (Stockton North, Labour)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 225, in clause 32, page 23, line 21, at end insert

‘and

‘(e) the availability to a parent council of administrative, secretarial and related services and of information relevant to matters to be considered by such a council, whether by way of written reports or otherwise, excluding from involvement in the provision of any such services any member of the staff of the school otherwise than under an agreement voluntarily entered into by such member of staff for reasonable remuneration.'.

David Chaytor (Bury North, Labour)

The purpose of these two amendments is to allow us a brief opportunity to examine some of the issues in relation to parent councils, particularly the role and function of such councils, the kind of administrative support that they might require, and the demands that they might make on the school. Given that the Education Act 2005 abolished the previous obligation of schools to hold an annual parents’ meeting, how is it that we now feel that there will be sufficient interest among parents for them to attend a parent council which would, presumably, meet more  frequently than once a year? The argument for the parent council is clearly that, in circumstances in which a trust school has been established and the foundation has been given a majority on the governing body, it would serve as a compensatory mechanism whereby the parents’ voice could still be heard, albeit not to the same degree as it used to be on the governing body.

The clause does not specify the role or responsibilities of the parent council other than to say that it should advise the governing body. If the governing body were to refuse to take its advice, what kind of dispute resolution procedure would there be, and how would the governing body ensure that a tiny minority of parents did not subvert the council’s role to their own advantage, or to the perceived advantage of their children?

Finally, if the parent council is to be a serious body—if it attracts the support and confidence of parents, meets fairly regularly, and deals with serious and substantial issues—what sort of administrative support will be necessary? Who will provide it and what burden might fall on the school? Will members of staff—teachers or support staff—be expected to service the parent council in the way in which, previously, they have been expected to service the governing body? Those are some of the questions that arise from my amendments. I shall be interested to hear my right hon. Friend’s response.

Nick Gibb (Shadow Minister (Schools), Education; Bognor Regis & Littlehampton, Conservative)

Amendment No. 224, to which the hon. Member for Bury, North spoke in the briefest contribution that I have heard him make to this Committee, would change the role of the parent council from one of giving advice to one of assisting. Depending on how those words are interpreted, that would either make it a non-voting group on a school’s board of governors or it would do nothing. I hate to sound like the Minister, but I believe the amendment to be unnecessary. Regulation 6 of the draft School Governance (Parent Council) (England) Regulations 2006, which the Minister kindly circulated on 19 April, states:

“The governing body shall consult the parent council on such matters and in such manner as they consider appropriate in relation to the governing body’s conduct of the school, and...the governing body shall have regard to any advice given or views expressed to them by the parent council”.

That is the correct role, and it is important. There are already positions available to parents as parent governors. To go further by incorporating the parent council in the governing board of a school would make the board unwieldy, large and unworkable. It may be that the Government have got the balance right in the Bill.

Amendment No. 225 would ensure that regulations include provision for secretarial support for parent councils. The hon. Gentleman’s wish has come true, because regulation 7(2) states:

“The governing body shall provide the parent council with such support and assistance as they may reasonably require.”

Paragraph 7.22 of the regulatory impact assessment, on page 97, states that that will mean two hours of the school secretary’s time to organise meetings, at a cost of £20; and the use of facilities, including heating,  lighting, caretaking and opportunity costs for the room, calculated at approximately £80.

The regulatory impact assessment goes still further, saying that the sanction for non-compliance will be a direction from the Secretary of State, to be enforced by court order if necessary. Ofsted will inspect

“how schools take into account the views of parents and other stakeholders.”

Incidentally, it is interesting to see the extent to which this guidance is to be enforced by provisions and guidance to Ofsted, whereas the homework guidance has no related enforcement procedures. Sometimes the prescription that the Government inflict on the education world is focused on minor issues, and no attention other than the publication of guidance is paid to the big issues such as how much homework children are set.

The hon. Gentleman has got what he is asking for, and it will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response.

Sarah Teather (Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Education & Skills; Brent East, Liberal Democrat)

The hon. Member for Bury, North seeks to strengthen the role of parent councils. It would not matter if parent councils were merely an advisory body, had not parents’ voice on governing bodies been diminished by earlier clauses of the Bill. I have placed on record my desire not to see a reduction in the number of elected parents on governing bodies. I sympathise greatly with the hon. Gentleman’s desire to strengthen the role of parent councils, given the reduction in the number of parent governors, but avoiding the latter would have been more desirable.

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

The effect of the amendments would be to place additional requirements on governing bodies of trust schools which have a majority of trust-appointed governors, and on parents who are members of statutory parent councils. I understand the intention of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North, which is to probe the relationship between the parent council and the governing body. He wishes to establish how the parent council fits into our other provisions intended to ensure the delivery of our objective: that is, parents not only engaged meaningfully in their child’s education but able to influence what happens in their child’s school.

Amendment No. 224 would place an enormous burden on the governing body of a trust school. I recognise that that was not necessarily the intention behind my hon. Friend’s amendment. Parent councils can potentially make a very important contribution in all kinds of schools, and the clause makes it clear that where a trust appoints the majority of governors, the school should be required to have a parent council. I can see that the parent council might be able to make a broader contribution, but a governing body, the strategic leader of a school, is rightly responsible and accountable in law for its school’s conduct. With the head teacher and the leadership team, it is responsible for taking all major decisions about the school and its future. Nothing in the Bill—neither the establishment of parent councils nor the relationship with a trust—will change that fundamental role. Governing bodies will continue to be made up of representatives of the various stakeholders with an interest in the school, including parents.

The hon. Member for Brent, East corrected herself, but she made the mistake of saying what I have heard plenty of others say: that the parent voice will be diminished by the new governance arrangements for trust schools. That is not the case. As with other categories of school, there will still be a requirement for a third of the governing body to be parents. I accept that the hon. Lady corrected herself regarding how parents would be elected, or not, to the governing body, but the fact remains that parents will have a strong voice as a third of the governing body, and will rightly take their role as a key stakeholder.

As an elected representative, I believe in the power of democracy, but I do not think that being elected is the be-all and end-all of one’s ability to represent a particular viewpoint on a governing body, for example.

Sarah Teather (Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Education & Skills; Brent East, Liberal Democrat)

My concern is that although a majority of the governing body are appointed by the trust, the parents also appointed by the trust will not be in the same way directly accountable to other parents at the school.

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

There are two contentious elements to that. Of course, in the strictest sense, elected parent governors are accountable to the extent that they have been elected by parents. Many of them do a good job in feeding back to those parents, but that does not always happen when parents are elected.

Secondly, the important element is that they are parents. If the hon. Lady suggests—I am not sure that she went that far—that a parent might put the interests of the trust before the interests of the school that their children attend, I must say that I have yet to meet a parent who would do that.

Sarah Teatherrose—

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

The important element here is that the voice of parents is protected not only on the governing body but in a range of other ways that I will go on to develop once I have let the hon. Lady have another say.

Sarah Teather (Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Education & Skills; Brent East, Liberal Democrat)

I thank the Minister for giving way. Of course, that is not what I am suggesting. She said that people do not always feed back when they are elected. That is often the case for councillors, and even MPs, but they tend to get voted out when they do not perform those duties adequately. That is my point about democracy.

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

I do not disagree, but I was simply emphasising that the hon. Lady was wrong to say that the parent voice on the governing body is being diminished. It is not.

Meg Hillier (Hackney South & Shoreditch, Labour)

Has my right hon. Friend or her team at the Department given any thought to the development of mutual schools—co-operative set-ups—that would give parents a share and a voice in the running of those schools?

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

My hon. Friend raised this issue the other day. It is an extremely interesting idea. I know that my colleague the Under-Secretary has a strong interest in such things, being a Labour and Co-operative MP, and that the Co-operative group in Parliament has considered the opportunities that the Bill and the trust model in particular might provide for that sort of co-operative approach. I am extremely willing to consider such ideas. There are good opportunities within the legislation for that to happen, and I am keen to consider how we might give more support to such ideas. That might be a good way in which parents can be represented and properly involved.

Phil Hope (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Corby, Labour)

As the Labour and Co-operative MP for Corby in east Northamptonshire, I am one of 30 Labour and Co-operative Members of this House who work together co-operatively to promote the interests of co-operation across the board. Those values can be well applied in the education arena to raise standards and promote those values to our young people.

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

It is hard to imagine a finer group of men and women than the Co-operative group of Labour MPs. I have every confidence that with their vision and effort we will be able to make the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) a reality.

Of course, we agree that it is vital that the governing body listens to the views of parents.

Annette Brooke (Children & the Family, Cross-Portfolio and Non-Portfolio Responsibilities; Mid Dorset & North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

I want to put a particular scenario to the Minister, just for consideration. It concerns a governing body that decided, with no consultation with parents, to impose a certain school uniform. There was absolute uproar, but the point was that elected parent-governors would be responsible for that. If a parent-governor who was appointed by the trust agreed with that implementation of the uniform—in other words, that was the minority view of parents—that person would not have the same accountability to the parent body. There are other matters, aside from the school standards to which the right hon. Lady referred, that can be contentious.

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

I was not referring only to school standards. I agree with the hon. Lady that issues such as school uniform, discipline, school food and the way in which the school is organised are not only important for parents, but can be contentious. My argument is that we need a broad range of ways in which we can engage parents in discussing those issues.

We will, I hope, impose a requirement under the Bill to have regard to the views of parents. I do not know the details of the scenario that the hon. Lady was outlining, but a governing body when making that sort of decision would be required to have regard to parents’ views. It could not simply ignore them. That new duty is part of our strategy to involve parents more actively in the running of schools. All schools currently have to demonstrate to Ofsted that they listen to and take on board the views of parents as part of school inspection.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North made a point about the annual general meeting. However and whenever it was introduced, many of us who have had experience of AGMs as governors or as parents would accept that whatever their good intentions, they did not fulfil those intentions in respect of parental engagement. We have removed the requirement foran AGM. As I have outlined, we are making new requirements for parental involvement under the Bill and have already begun work to ensure that schools produce a school’s profile for parents. The profile will be an easily digestible set of information about the school’s priorities, what it has been up to and how successful it has been. I suspect that that will be more successful than the AGM at both communicating information and enabling parents to think how they can be involved.

Parent councils are designed to ensure that parents are represented and to provide a forum for them to be heard. Our aim is to make sure that parents of children attending a trust school where there is a majority of governors from the trust and thus the number of elected parents is reduced, will have the opportunity to be involved and to influence the running of the schools.

The regulations that we have made available tothe Committee place light-touch requirements on governing bodies of trust schools in relation to parent councils. It is right that they should do so. Engaging with parents is not a new requirement on schools and it will be for the governing body and the parent council to determine how they will work together most effectively. It would not be right to impose particular arrangements on governing bodies and parent councils. We want to allow maximum flexibility so that parents and governing bodies can establish arrangements that are right for their school.

I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw the amendment, not least because, as the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton said, he will be reassured by the illustrative regulations that we have issued. I am referring to regulation 6, in particular, which makes clear how we envisage that relationship between the parent council and the governing body.

Amendment No. 225 would enable the regulations to be made under subsection (4) of proposed new section 23A to the Education Act 2002 to make provision as to the administrative, secretarial and related services to be provided to the parent council. The power in subsection (5) to confer functions on the governing body in relation to the parent council already allows regulations to make such provision.

The hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton stole all my best lines, pointing out that regulation 7 of the illustrative parent council regulations makes clear the requirement for support and assistance to the governing body to be made available. He went even further and quoted the regulatory impact assessment, giving an example of how we might expect to see that delivered.

We believe that parent councils can make an important contribution. They can provide a forum to allow parents to make a real contribution to their  children’s education, which will help improve the school system. They will provide a more accessible way of involving parents in decisions about the school. Because they are more informal, and because they are less of a commitment than being an elected parent governor, they can involve more parents than the governing body. In addition, it is likely that serving on a parent council will give parents the sort of training that will enable them to be more effective and confident parent governors.

We will issue guidance and good practice examples to assist parents in setting up and running their council. It will refer to what already works well in schools and, more important, it will include arrangements to make it easier for disadvantaged parents and those who have English as a additional language to become involved.

Parent councils have the potential to make an important contribution. The regulations and guidance allow the right balance between the roles of the parent council and the governing body, and they ensure the support that is necessary for them to function effectively. I hope that my hon. Friend is reassured.

David Chaytor (Bury North, Labour)

I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Nick Gibb (Shadow Minister (Schools), Education; Bognor Regis & Littlehampton, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 44, in clause 32, page 23, line 22, leave out ‘or impose'.

This is a brief probing amendment, to flush outthe meaning of subsection (5) of proposed newsection 23A. It states:

“Regulations may confer or impose functions relating to parent councils”.

I have read the regulations, but I am still unclear whether they impose or confer. I ask the Minister to clarify that.

On the substantive issue, the Opposition are in favour of parent councils and of parental involvement in schools. Indeed, we believe that schools should be far more responsive to the needs and wishes of parents. The thrust of the Bill will enable the type and quality of schools demanded by parents to be more available. We support parent councils, because we believe that they will put the right kind of pressure on schools to deliver the quality of education that parents demand.

Jacqui Smith (Minister of State (Schools and 14-19 Learners), Department for Education and Skills; Redditch, Labour)

I am being even handed in my largesse this afternoon. Having been very amenable to the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, I now propose accepting amendment No. 44. It improves the drafting of the clause. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton for bringing the matter to our attention. We will accept the amendment, because “functions” encompasses powers and duties, making the words “or impose” superfluous and unnecessary. I am happy to accept the amendment, as I am to accept the hon. Gentleman’s support for parent councils and the contribution that they will be able to make.

While we are on the topic of the word “impose”, it is worth my emphasising that we are not suggesting that  we should impose parent councils on schools that do not have a trust with a majority on the governing body. They may have an important contribution to make. We want them to develop, but that would be a choice for the school in such circumstances.