Adam Price (Spokesperson (Defence; Transport; Economy & Taxation; Miners Compensation; Regeneration; Trade & Industry); Carmarthen East & Dinefwr, Plaid Cymru)

I beg to move amendment No. 38, in clause 3, page 2, line 26, at end insert—

‘(5) Where the Commissioner considers it relevant to the success of any relevant function of a person mentioned in Schedule 2, the Commissioner may keep under review the operation in Wales of—

(a) Jobcentre Plus, insofar as its activities or employees are involved with the administration of any welfare benefits paid to claimants who are older people in Wales as defined in section 24;

(b) Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, insofar as its activities or employees are involved with the administration of any tax credits for claimants who are older people in Wales as defined in section 24;

(c) local authorities' functions, insofar as their activities or employees are involved with the administration of any housing, council tax, or other welfare benefit paid to claimants who are older people in Wales as defined in section 24.

(6) The Commissioner may report any findings arising from any review to—

(a) Jobcentre Plus where the findings arising from any review are in relation to the activities or employees of Jobcentre Plus;

(b) Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs where the findings arising from any review are in relation to the activities or employees of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs;

(c) the local authority to which the findings arising from any review brief are related;

(d) the National Assembly for Wales;

(e) the relevant Minister.'.

Janet Dean (Burton, Labour)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 21, in schedule 2, page 23, line 31, at end insert—

‘The Air Ambulance in Wales

Ambulance services and trusts

A voluntary organisation discharging functions in relation to health and social care.'.

No. 22, in schedule 2, page 24, line 27, at end add—

Adam Price (Spokesperson (Defence; Transport; Economy & Taxation; Miners Compensation; Regeneration; Trade & Industry); Carmarthen East & Dinefwr, Plaid Cymru)

This amendment and those standing in the name of the hon. Member for Ceredigion approach the devolution problem from a different direction. One would not get very far in my party without a vast reservoir of optimism, so we will try to have the debate once again. The amendment tries to address the problem in a slightly different way. Rather than giving the commissioner unconstrained power to conduct the same kind of review in relation to non-devolved areas, the amendment and the others in the group name specific bodies that we want to add to the list of bodies that the commissioner should have a statutory power to review.

The amendment focuses on the economic context for many older people. I am not sure how many Marxists are left in the Labour party, but the economic base is still important. What can be more important to the welfare of older people than the tax and benefits system? We can debate the age definition, which is addressed in a subsequent set of amendments, but there are still some issues relating to the labour market which affect older people.

There is a strong argument for affording the commissioner the right to conduct a formal review of benefits, because such matters will be very much to the fore for individual older people and their representative organisations. The issue is addressed in the Welsh Assembly’s older people’s strategy, which I have commended—I can be very gracious. It is fantastic to  see that Wales has innovated socially, through its comprehensive older people’s strategy. We might disagree about its implementation, but we agree with many of the aims that it sets out, one of which is to combat poverty among older people and to promote a greater uptake of benefits. The Assembly has made that part of its strategy, but has not distinguished between devolved and non-devolved matters.

The commissioner must be able to conduct formal reviews of the way in which Jobcentre Plus and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs operate in Wales. We may be able to distinguish issues of policy, but the way in which their operations are conducted needs to be part of the commissioner’s purview. That is what the amendment seeks to do, otherwise the commissioner will have to send a letter or pick up the telephone every week to make representations because he or she will be unable to conduct a formal review in relation to any of the matters that our constituents will want to raise with the commissioner simply because they are non-devolved. I suggest that for non-devolved agencies it would be sensible to come up with a different formula that allows the commissioner to become involved in reviewing their activities.

Mark Williams (Shadow Minister, Education & Skills; Ceredigion, Liberal Democrat)

There is obviously a great deal of overlap between amendment No. 22, what the hon. Gentleman said, and amendment No. 21, which would add the air ambulance in Wales, the ambulance services and voluntary organisations to the health and social care organisations that are covered by schedule 2.

Both amendments would expand the list of bodies and agencies that the commissioner can review. Amendment No. 21 would add health agencies which are, as the hon. Gentleman said, topical in light of the review that is being unexpectedly undertaken. It would also add voluntary organisations, many of which undertake wonderful work in Wales to provide care and services for the elderly. Many of the organisations have a hands-on role—for example, the Women’s Royal Voluntary Service and the country cars scheme—and it is fitting that they should receive appropriate scrutiny by the commissioner.

Amendment No. 22 revisits ground that we have talked about at length. It would allow the commissioner to review UK-wide agencies that provide vital services in Wales and covers pensions, benefits, justice and job services, which are not currently listed in schedule 2. Broadening the schedule would give the commissioner an important voice in an important area.

It is important to remember the practicalities. We want to have a real effect on the lives of people in Wales. It will be confusing for many vulnerable constituents to draw the dividing line between devolved and non-devolved matters and those that are reserved. A line in the sand that dictates the commissioner’s role and remit will not matter a great deal to the average older person in Wales who has legitimate concerns and grievances. They want a strong advocate and representative who can help them with all the major issues they face. If the Bill is enacted without such amendments, many people will be concerned that although they have been given someone to champion their causes, he or she can achieve very little. That is  why things as fundamental as pensions and tax credits should be part of an expanded role for the commissioner beyond the sadly narrow confines of the existing devolution settlement.

Nick Ainger (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Office of the Secretary of State for Wales; Carmarthen West & South Pembrokeshire, Labour)

I know that the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr is always optimistic, but sadly I am going to disappoint him yet again.

Amendment No. 38 would enable the commissioner to use his clause 3 powers to review the discharge of functions of bodies operating in non-devolved matters, including Jobcentre Plus and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. The amendment also seeks to enable the commissioner to make a report on his findings arising from any such review. It is another way of trying to extend the commissioner’s remit in non-devolved matters.

As I stated when discussing clause 2, non-devolved functions are properly the responsibility of the UK Government and not of the Assembly. There is an appropriate route for the commissioner to make representations on non-devolved issues, and that is via the Assembly. We have discussed it at length. If the commissioner felt that the activities of Jobcentre Plus and its administration of welfare benefits, for example, merited his consideration, he could undertake research and make representations to the Assembly, as discussed. He could consider those issues. I appreciate the point that older people are part of the work force. I am grateful to a number of employers who recognise that positively, and it is essential that those who can help older people into employment follow policies to encourage them to stay in or re-enter the work force.

We are going back over ground that we have covered. All I can do is reiterate that when the commissioner considers certain things to be important, he can carry out the necessary research and make representations, and they will go to the relevant department.

Amendment No. 21 would add certain bodies to the list in schedule 2, thereby enabling the commissioner to review the discharge of their functions. I assure the hon. Member for Ceredigion that air ambulance services, ambulance services and trusts in Wales are already covered by the inclusion in schedules 2 and 3 of:

“An NHS trust managing a hospital or other establishment or facility in Wales.”

Operational control of air ambulance services and the air ambulance service itself rests with the Welsh Ambulances Service NHS Trust, so that aspect of the amendment is unnecessary.

I accept that voluntary organisations are important and particularly relevant to older people. However, to add voluntary organisations in general to schedule 2 would significantly alter the scope of the Bill. It would also be at odds with other commissioner or ombudsman models that focus on the accountability of bodies and persons who provide statutory services. The Bill will cover several voluntary organisations that provide services directly to older people. When a voluntary organisation provides services such as residential or domiciliary care, it will be registered under the Care Standards Act 2000. The Bill will capture those organisations under the definition in clause 26 of a person providing “Regulated services in  Wales”. Consequently, they will be subject to the commissioner’s powers to review arrangements and issue best practice guidance. The commissioner might also assist an older person in making a complaint about or a representation to such bodies.

Voluntary organisations that provide services on behalf of, or under arrangements with, a schedule 3 body will also be subject to the commissioner’s powers to review arrangements and provide assistance with making a complaint or representation. The commissioner will also be able to make representations or issue guidance to the Assembly if he has concerns about the role of voluntary organisations in respect of older people. The Assembly Government take the view, which we share, that for the commissioner it is an appropriate level of involvement with a voluntary sector organisation. As the amendment suggests, the problem is that introducing that level of accountability for, and scrutiny of, all voluntary sector services might discourage the provision of some voluntary services, which is not the hon. Gentleman’s intention or that of the Government or the Assembly.

Adam Price (Spokesperson (Defence; Transport; Economy & Taxation; Miners Compensation; Regeneration; Trade & Industry); Carmarthen East & Dinefwr, Plaid Cymru)

My optimism has taken another severe blow, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.