Roger Williams (Brecon & Radnorshire, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move that the clause be read a Second time.

The new clause is intended to ensure that the relationship between local authorities and child care providers is maintained at the best level and that disputes in which local authorities want to reclaim moneys from child care providers for their services, on the basis that they have not provided that which they contracted to provide, can be resolved in a more low-key manner than through the courts or other processes. The new clause provides that if there is a dispute as to whether a repayment or part of a repayment should be made, it should be done through a tribunal set up for that purpose by the National Assembly for Wales. That should enhance the relationship between local authorities and providers.

Maria Eagle (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Children and Families), Department for Education and Skills; Liverpool, Garston, Labour)

I was becoming a little worried. I am certainly slightly disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not make it clear whether he had consulted the Welsh Assembly Government or the Welsh Assembly about the frankly burdensome requirement that he seeks to place on them to set up a special tribunal to hear appeals from providers against a Welsh local authority’s decision to ask the providers to repay funding that the authority had given them. Perhaps the fact that he did not say that he had consulted them means that we can assume that he did not.

Mr. Williamsindicated assent.

Maria Eagle (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Children and Families), Department for Education and Skills; Liverpool, Garston, Labour)

He did not, which disappoints me, given his previous strictures. None the less, we discussed setting up separate appeals processes for   providers when we dealt with similar amendments on the English clauses.New clause 12 is slightly different from his previous amendments, but the same arguments still apply. Welsh local authorities are already working with child care providers in the private, voluntary and maintained sectors, and they will need to build on the relationships that they have developed to fulfil the duty to provide sufficient child care. That means more, not less, co-operation. We do not really want there to be fights, wars, territorial disagreements or any other military symbolism.

I appreciate that providers should be able to seek redress if they believe that the local authority has not acted properly. In the first instance, of course, one would expect them to sort out their differences with the local authority as amicably as possible. Providers who have had contractual arrangements with local authorities will have recourse through the courts if they want to challenge a local authority’s demands to repay funding, but it is important that the authorities have the power to require funding to be repaid to ensure that they can get value for money. The power is a lever for value for money in contractual arrangements with providers who are not maintained providers.

Providers always have the option of complaining to the public services ombudsman for Wales if they are not happy with the local authority’s response to their complaint. Depending on the circumstances, they can also always take action through the courts by way of judicial review if they believe that the local authority has acted illegally or irrationally.

Given those safeguards, it would an inefficient use of funds to require the Welsh Assembly to set up an entire tribunal system to consider such complaints, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will consider withdrawing the motion.

Roger Williams (Brecon & Radnorshire, Liberal Democrat)

I have listened very carefully to the Minister. I assure her that my intention was to make the process and the relationship between providers and local authorities better and more productive, but I shall heed her advice in future and ensure that I consult the Welsh Assembly and even the Welsh Assembly Government, if I am allowed to approach those exalted bodies, before I have the temerity to table an amendment or even a new clause.

The point has been made. I am sure that we will be able to resolve the matter in the Welsh context, perhaps by regulation, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.