New Clause 12 - Interception of communications (No. 4)
Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill
10:15 am
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Shadow Minister, Economic Affairs; Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)
This has been an interesting debate; I will give the Minister that. I am afraid that it leaves me unsatisfied, however, with the position that the Government have outlined. Before I explain why, I should perhaps say that I meant no disrespect to the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome in selecting the new clause that he had not signed rather than all my other amendments, which he had. Throughout the course of the Bill, it has been clear that he and I have often been of one mind in our critique of the Government's legislation. In these days of newsworthy events, I want him to know that I have in my pocket an application for him to join the Conservative party should he be minded to follow the logic of my earlier remarks, but I meant no disrespect to him. The new clause was narrowly drawn in order to deal with aspects of the Bill, and I hope that I have made it clear that the case I sought to put was far wider than the new clause and dealt with the more general issue of intercept evidence.
The hon. Gentleman said that material derived properly in court under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act should be used, and I agree. The hon. and learned Member for Redcar made an enormously compelling contribution, saying that the confusion in the matter is of real detriment to good justice, pointing out the illogicality of the Government's position and, from her direct experience in the courts, using evidence of the value of intercept evidence in court. She gave her opinion that in the case she referred to conviction might not have been secured without the Dutch intercept. The Government would do well to listen to her.
My hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield zeroed in, as the excellent lawyer that he is, on court procedure, which I brushed lightly over for two reasons. First, the use of intercept is an issue for SOCA and for the prosecuting authority. They will use it under our subvention if they think that it is appropriate and wish to do so. They will not be compelled to do so. That is a fundamental weakness in the Minister's case. As my hon. Friend pointed out, there are ways in which court procedures have been dealt with around the world, such as in America and Australia. There are issues to do with public immunity certificates, or possibly of a non-trial judge being involved. The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead also made a cautious and telling intervention in support of our argument.