Clause 262 - Alcohol licence
Gambling Bill
4:15 pm

Ms Ann McKechin (Glasgow Maryhill, Labour)

I seek clarification from the Minister on the definition of an alcohol licence under the Licensing Act 2003. That legislation refers only to England and Wales. I see no reference to a licence granted under the equivalent Scottish legislation, the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976. If my understanding is correct, will the Minister confirm that he will table an appropriate amendment on Report?

Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)

In order to make life easier for the Minister and his hon. Friend, I shall immediately give way to the Minister to enable him to put what he has just said on the record.

Mr Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport and Tourism), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

The answer is yes.

Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)

I hope that that was a helpful introduction to what I am about to say. Mr. Gale, in your absence from the Chair this morning, and in Mr. Pike's presence, the Minister and I had a somewhat acrimonious exchange and I withdrew an imputation that I had made. I want to state for the record that I hope to pursue the issue that I sought to raise this morning, but in a less confrontational way.

We have now reached the clauses relating to pubs. We shall come to the detail when we discuss subsequent clauses and amendments, particularly those to clauses 263 and 267 and the new clauses consequent thereon. When the Minister spoke on Tuesday I had the impression that he was talking about recent consultations that the Government had had with the British Beer and Pub Association. I was not alone in that. However, my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire pointed out in a helpful intervention just before lunch that the Minister may have been referring to much earlier consultations with that association. Both the BBPA and members of this Committee accept that those earlier consultations took place. The basis of my query this morning was a letter that I had today and a briefing that I received last night, which says:

''Neither the BBPA nor any other representative body as far as we are aware have been consulted on these new clauses and we have had no opportunity at this stage to improve their drafting.''

There is clearly a significant issue about this part of the Bill, and the way in which the Government will seek in later clauses to amend it, concerning how pubs will be affected. My concern, as the founder and joint treasurer of the all-party beer group, in which I have been consistently involved, is to ensure that pub   businesses in my constituency and in every other constituency in the land are not damaged. We should ensure that the link between the recent Licensing Act—this clause relates to alcohol licences—and the Bill is based on joined-up government and not on any confusion. I shall come back to the details when we debate subsequent clauses, but I felt, as this is the first clause that deals with alcohol licences, that it would be helpful to put that on the record.

Mr Eric Illsley (Barnsley Central, Labour)

The clause defines an alcohol licence and an on-premises alcohol licence, but there is no such thing as an on-premises alcohol licence. As a consequence of the Licensing Act 2003, that does not exist. I assume that that is why subsection (b) reads,

'' 'on-premises alcohol licence' means a premises licence''.

That refers to a new system of licensing that has not yet been introduced, because the Licensing Act does not come into effect until February. Can my right hon. Friend say a few words about the confusion that is likely to be caused by the difference between the definitions in the Licensing Act and those in the clause? There is some confusion in the description of the licences and in the definition of pubs and restaurants, which we will come to in the next clause.

Mr Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport and Tourism), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

To answer the questions from the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins), I said earlier this week:

''Further to that point of order, Mr. Gale. I apologise to the Committee. We have not had a lot of time in which to get these amendments and new clauses out. We have done so as quickly as possible and we have consulted the British Beer and Pub Association. Nevertheless, I accept the comments that have been made. The usual channels may agree that it will be convenient to stop a little short of the time allocated to allow for reflection and further debate. I hope that the usual channels will be able to deliver that.''—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 7 December 2004; c. 395.]

I want to put it on record that my officials have been in contact with a number of organisations, including the BBPA. Indeed, my officials telephoned the BBPA on Monday about the amendment. We have also had a number of meetings with the association on other topics during the past few weeks. During those   telephone calls, we explained what the amendments did, which is to provide a clear application procedure with the 2003 Act in mind. We also let the BBPA know that we were willing to listen and to discuss its proposed amendments and those consequential to them. We have taken serious account of what the BBPA said on behalf of its members, and my officials had a very useful dialogue with the association.

I was apologetic in my remarks at column 395 of Hansard on Tuesday, and I believe that the words used by the hon. Gentleman this morning about my being misleading and giving wrong information to the Committee or the House were totally unjustified and wrong. We have been in dialogue with the BBPA and we have taken on board much of its advice, which I hope will make for a good Bill at the end of the day. I am very surprised indeed at the hon. Gentleman's allegations this morning. They concerned comments made at a function on the Terrace of the House of Commons last night when senior officials of the BBPA made allegations against both my officials and my office. I do not accept those allegations. We have had dialogue with the BBPA, and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman goes back to those people to ask them exactly what they were talking about and who they were referring to. If they will please give chapter and verse, we will respond in the public domain. We will not be responding at private functions.

Turning to the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Central about the 2003 Act, clause 262 contains the key definitions for clauses 263 to 268. In particular, it defines ''alcohol licence'' and ''on-premises alcohol licence'' by reference to the 2003 Act, which, as he rightly said, will become operational in February 2005.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 262 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Further consideration adjourned.—[Mr. Watson.]

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes past Four o'clock till Tuesday 14 December at half-past Nine o'clock.