Mr Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport and Tourism), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

I beg to move amendment No. 282, in page 35, line 15, after 'to', insert '(a)'.

Mr Peter Pike (Burnley, Labour)

With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 283 and 284.

Mr Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport and Tourism), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

The amendments would ensure that children were still able to play some low-level games, such as the teddy cranes, in family entertainment centres; otherwise clause 79 would effectively prevent them from doing so.

Amendment No. 284 would redefine ''prize'' to cover prizes in respect of gambling, including betting and lotteries, instead of just gaming. Without it, the clause would regulate the return of prizes to children and young persons in relation to gaming, and not betting or lotteries.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: No. 283, in page 35, line 15, at end insert

', or (b) participation in equal chance gaming at a licensed family entertainment centre.'.—[Mr. Caborn.]

Mr Don Foster (Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media & Sport, Culture, Media & Sport; Bath, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move amendment No. 195, in page 35, line 18, leave out from 'law' to end of line 25.

The Committee may be getting as fed up with me as it is with the Minister. Nevertheless, I have to point out that at the moment it would be possible for a child to come into an area where they are entitled to go, and to use a gaming machine under age with no prospect of losing money, only the prospect of winning and keeping the money. It strikes me as odd that the Bill would make it possible for under-age people to come into a gaming area—obviously, one seeks to prevent them from doing that—and win money, with no requirement for that money to be returned. It makes sense to address that particular loophole, as I and many other people see it. A great deal of research has been done on the matter, and it has been referred to in a number of newspaper articles and reports. The Minister will be thoroughly briefed and I look forward to his answer.

Mr Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport and Tourism), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

The amendment seeks to allow operators to demand the repayment of prizes that they have paid out to children and young people. In my view that would have the unfortunate effect of rewarding operators who do not show due diligence in

checking the age of their customers. The Government have stated time and again that operators are responsible for preventing children and young people from using their facilities. If they fail to live up to that responsibility, it is unacceptable that they should be able to recoup their losses.

The protection of children is a key objective of the Bill. Any instance of an operator allowing children or young people to gamble could bring into question the fitness of that operator to hold an operating licence. To ensure that operators have proper systems in place, we regard it as essential that operators be restricted from reclaiming prizes from people under 18 where those prizes are won prior to the operator realising that the person was under 18. That may seem harsh to the hon. Gentleman, but we think it is the best means of requiring operators to take proof-of-age issues seriously. I urge him to withdraw his amendment.

Mr Don Foster (Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media & Sport, Culture, Media & Sport; Bath, Liberal Democrat)

I am grateful to the Minister. I anticipated his reply; I have even written a series of notes saying exactly what he would say, and he more or less read them out precisely. The Minister and I agree that children and gambling do not mix, and every effort must be made to prevent that. He has said that only one set of people will have to take responsibility for that: the operators. If the operators are going to do that, we must bear it in mind that there will be different circumstances. The Minister will be well aware of the difficulty of judging ages, and on occasion genuine mistakes will be made before, at a later stage, the operator is able to assess that the person is in fact under age. That would not necessarily have been a fault of the operator, and the amendment would have added an additional disincentive for an under-age person to go and do something that they should not be doing anyway, which is to gamble. I would have thought that the Minister would be more sympathetic; nevertheless I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: No. 284, in page 35, line 29, leave out 'gaming' and insert 'gambling'. —[Mr. Caborn.]

Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Mr Malcolm Moss (Shadow Minister, Home Affairs; North East Cambridgeshire, Conservative)

I listened to the exchange between the hon. Member for Bath and the Minister, and sympathised with both sides of the argument. On one hand, the Minister is right to say that proprietors who do not check their premises properly for the entry of young persons should not benefit from the return of prizes won by children, but I also have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's amendment. Is not there a possible compromise, whereby such prizes are confiscated? If children walk away with prizes, what signal are we sending—that they should try to do so again? There is merit on both sides of the argument, but I suggest that if an under-age person plays a machine and wins, their prize should be confiscated, not given to them or returned to the proprietor.

Mr Richard Caborn (Minister of State (Sport and Tourism), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Sheffield Central, Labour)

The clause requires all those with operating licences to take certain steps if they become aware that a child or young person has used their facilities to gamble. Should the licensee become aware that a child or young person is using the general facilities, they should return any money used as a stake or fee, and should not pay out any winnings or prizes. Exceptions to that rule include category D gaming machines and equal-chance prize games in family entertainment centres, which children are permitted to play. The clause also ensures that young people can continue to play lotteries and football pools. Failure of operators in that respect will lead to action for the breach of licence conditions, which is separate from any offence that may have been committed.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 79, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.