Clause 6 - X-rays and ultrasound scans: Northern Ireland

Drugs Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 2:45 pm on 1 February 2005.

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Photo of Roger Gale Roger Gale Conservative, North Thanet 2:45, 1 February 2005

Clause 6 is a mirror of clause 5, save that it relates to Northern Ireland. Matters relating specifically to Northern Ireland are therefore in order for this debate.

Photo of Dame Cheryl Gillan Dame Cheryl Gillan Shadow Minister of State (Home Office)

Briefly, we again have differences, in line 18 and line 30, which refer respectively to ''superintendent'', not ''inspector'', and ''constable'' rather than ''appropriate officer''. I ask the Minister whether that is the correct terminology, in light of the requests made and points alluded to earlier.

I will touch on the reporting requirements in both clauses 5 and 6. In both territories, the Minister is requiring the annual report—under section 58 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 in this case, and under section 22 of the Police Act 1996 in clause 5, which refers to the Commissioner of the Police of the   Metropolis—to report on the total number of X-rays and ultrasound scans and their results. That will give the Minister the results she requires to find out the numbers, but it will not tell us how many individuals have been X-rayed or scanned, or both. I hope that she gives some thought to redrafting that, perhaps introducing an amendment on Report or Third Reading, to give us the number of individuals.

The Bill allows for both ultrasound and X-ray to be carried out, but it would be interesting to see whether individuals fall foul of the provisions repeatedly. We will also need to see whether people elude the scans because they have not swallowed, but are then arrested in another situation. More qualitative information within the reporting requirements would help us to understand what is happening in that area of drug taking and dealing.

Photo of Caroline Flint Caroline Flint Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) 3:00, 1 February 2005

As I said earlier, we discussed clause 6 with the Northern Ireland Office. It provides for X-rays and ultrasound scans in Northern Ireland, as clause 5 does for England and Wales. I mentioned also that in Northern Ireland, authorisation is to be given at the rank of superintendent, which reflects the difference between England and Wales and Northern Ireland, which has, historically, had higher-ranked authorisation procedures. However, I shall consider what has been said.

Photo of Dame Cheryl Gillan Dame Cheryl Gillan Shadow Minister of State (Home Office)

I am glad that the Minister is going to consider the matter. It may be that that ranking is no longer relevant at that level and that it should be lowered. That would give the police more liberty to deal with the matter, rather than restricting action to high-ranking officers.

Photo of Caroline Flint Caroline Flint Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office)

As I said, we consulted with the Northern Ireland Office, but I am happy to double check.

In relation to the hon. Lady's point about reporting and monitoring, I cannot commit to that at this stage. The work necessary for the monitoring and accumulation of statistics could prove to be a rather bureaucratic burden in proportion to the outcome. I shall read Hansard, but I think that we should consider what is proportionate.

I hope that in some circumstances the powers in the Bill will lead people charged with supply offences not to prevaricate, but to realise that the court will draw inferences from their choice not to have an X-ray or scan. I hope that that will put an end to some of the problems that the police have had. The number of X-rays and scans might not relate directly to the number of successful prosecutions of individuals for supply. I am interested in considering the number of convictions for supply offences in relation to the whole basket of drug offences. That would be worth while, but I am not sure that adding more data would do what the hon. Lady would like it to do.

Photo of Dame Cheryl Gillan Dame Cheryl Gillan Shadow Minister of State (Home Office)

I appreciate that the Minister wants to consider supply offences, particularly in view of the statistics that I quoted in Committee last Thursday.   However, if she is going to reconsider the matter, may I ask her to think about location? Where will the X-rays and ultrasound scans take place? It would be good to know if a large number were in and around Manchester airport. Certainly there would be information on which police forces were using the powers and where in the country the incidence was highest.

Photo of Caroline Flint Caroline Flint Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office)

Again, I have to say that part of the object is to give the police the power to get on with their job. Current custom and practice vary from one force area to another. Every day, police officers have, for one reason or another, and in one way or another, to take prisoners to hospital for medical procedures. It is not necessarily a good use of time either for the police to fill in charts to tell us where they are going and how much they use different places, or for the civil service to monitor them. We provide guidance—in consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers and others—as to how they should go about operational matters, but the procedures should take place under the law. I am a bit concerned about overburdening either civil servants at the centre of government or police forces on the ground with too much reporting.

Photo of Dame Cheryl Gillan Dame Cheryl Gillan Shadow Minister of State (Home Office)

I am not sure that the burden would fall on the police force, even though a record would be made in the police report. The national health service will have to log every X-ray and every scan, so the information will exist in NHS records.

Photo of Caroline Flint Caroline Flint Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office)

I understand that we are talking about information to do with the total number of X-rays, but every time something is added, that is another a piece of information that must ultimately be provided. Hypothetically, if the police have to report back every time they use the X-ray and scan in a hospital, someone somewhere—the police or a combination of the police and the hospital—will have to fill in a form or put the information into a computer, so that it can be pulled back to the centre.

The question is: for what purpose will that information be used? I resist the proposal to add more bits of information, because I am not sure what they would tell us at the end of the day or whether it would help us in what we are trying to do, which is more effectively to provide the evidential base for convicting people of supply offences.

We have had a wide-ranging discussion on the clause. Before I tempt the hon. Lady to her feet again, I shall resume my seat. I hope that the Committee can move forward and accept the clause.

Photo of Roger Gale Roger Gale Conservative, North Thanet

I was, of course, assuming that all hospitals referred to were hospitals in Northern Ireland.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.