Schedule 1 - Increase in maximum fines for
Traffic Management Bill
11:00 am
Mr David Wilshire (Spelthorne, Conservative)
As I run my eye down this list, and I remind the Committee that I am not a lawyer and do not have all the relevant offences or sections of particular Acts in my mind, it seems to me that on occasion someone who is not so cluttered up with the minutiae can see things that the lawyer does not. I would like the Minister to comment on a couple of matters in the schedule. I am sure that my colleagues and others will raise other issues.
Let us put aside the argument about how great the fines should be and run our eyes down to line 15 of page 57, which refers to section 65(6) and relates to penalties for:
''Interference with safety measures taken by undertaker''.
As a layman, I can see the sense in saying that some action ought to be taken if somebody interferes with safety measures. There are other instances such as that in the schedule. If the Minister were to give me the full details, I would say that if we were going to have such offences and levels of fines they should perhaps refer to such instances. However, I find a couple of the provisions mysterious. Line 10 of page 57 refers to section 57(4) and:
''Failure to give notice in accordance with s.57 (notice of emergency works)''.
I can conceive of a situation where the emergency comes to mind rather than the requirements of section
57(4). If we are dealing with a gas leak, I think that I would rather have someone do something about the escaping gas than have bureaucrats worry about who they should give notice, on what form, and where they have to deliver it.
It seems unreasonable to say that one should decide not to worry about the leaking gas until one has done the paperwork or else receive a level 4 fine of £2,500. One should be congratulated for doing things in the right order. The concept of saying that someone has failed to give notice of emergency works per se and ought to be punished by that sort of a fine is unreasonable, particularly as the Minister said as a general statement of policy that all offences should be prosecuted. Even under extenuating circumstances, the Minister's dictum is that all offences should be prosecuted. I think that is what he said; he would perhaps like to modify his views. It seems quite absurd that people who put safety first without doing the paperwork will find themselves in that sort of a situation.
I find it even more extraordinary that line 12 refers to section 60(3):
''Failure to comply with duty under s.60(1) (general duty of undertakers to co-operate)''.
What on earth is a general duty to co-operate? Who knows what general duties are? What is co-operation? If somebody, somewhere, wants to raise another stealth tax and decides that they will take action under the terms of a general duty to co-operate, the fine is £5,000 for not co-operating. That is absurd. Some of the offences that seem reasonable to me and get a level 4 fine could be quite serious.