Mr Huw Edwards (Monmouth, Labour)

The stand part debate gives me the opportunity to draw the Committee's attention to something that I hope could go into the piloting of the new provisions, especially under subsection (3), which says:

''Power to make regulations under subsection (1) is exercisable by statutory instrument.''

I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to consider ensuring sufficient protection to avoid overcrowding. I mentioned that earlier in Committee, and I am grateful to the Clerk, officials and Ministers with whom I have had the opportunity to discuss the subject.

My main concern is about what is known as the three-for-two rule. I, of course, would like that rule abolished in all cases. The issue has come to my attention because of the situation in my constituency. I am talking about service buses—not contracted buses—such as the No. 69, which goes from Chepstow to Monmouth. On reaching the village of Llandogo, it used to have a number of passengers on board. Then, it would take on 40 to 50 pupils, and then some more passengers. Such buses were particularly overcrowded, and the seating capacity of the bus on any particular day determined the level of overcrowding, which was sometimes gross; I have been on the buses in that situation.

My main concern is that the local authority entered into contracts with the bus operator—at the time, it was Stagecoach—that almost assumed that there would be overcrowding, or institutionalised overcrowding, as buses call it, because of the company's ability to take advantage of the three-for-two concession. I understand that the rule goes back to the Education Act 1944 but, more importantly, it is also in the Public Service Vehicles (Carrying Capacity) Regulations 1984, which say—this is mainly in relation to the number of seated passengers—that,

''subject to sub-paragraph (a) above, three seated children each of whom is under 14 years of age and none of whom are occupying a seat provided with a seat belt shall count as two passengers.''

So three under-14s can sit on a double seat. That means that a bus with 52 seats could technically take 52 plus 26 passengers, if they were all under 14—and not under 15, as I told the Committee on Tuesday.

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