Mr Hywel Williams (Spokesperson (Disability; Health; Social Security; Work and Pensions); Caernarfon, Plaid Cymru)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The Committee will know of my keenness to ensure that the Audit Committee of the National Assembly is kept as fully informed as possible, and can be as effective as possible. The new clause aims to ensure that the Audit Committee can require anyone

''relevant to a report submitted by the Auditor General . . . to attend the Audit Committee, give evidence and produce documents as required.''

That is a sensible step that will enable the Committee to carry out its functions properly. I have no doubt that in the ordinary course of events, such a power would not be needed or used. However, it should be there if so needed. Furthermore, it would be indicative of the importance that the Government and the National Assembly attach to the work of the Audit Committee. As I said earlier, the Audit Committee has worked co-operatively on a cross-party basis, and has already saved the Welsh taxpayer about £90 million.

The new clause would amend section 74 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 and allow the Audit Committee to call people who are relevant to a report submitted by the Auditor General for Wales to the Audit Committee. It would allow the body accountable for auditing in the Assembly to follow the money to its end point. Being able to call witnesses is an important power of the Public Accounts Committee, and I am sure that no hon. Members would want that power to be taken away. The Audit Committee needs a similar power to do its job properly.

I also note that the Public Accounts Committee retains responsibility for some areas of expenditure in Wales, can call witnesses and can have access to documents in London, but the Audit Committee in Cardiff carrying out a similar function cannot do so. The body charged with auditing expenditure on devolved matters does not have the power to call witnesses to Cardiff, which is unjustifiable. I seek reassurance from the Minister about the importance that the UK Government attaches to the Audit Committee in Cardiff, and to enabling it to do its work properly.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

The intention of new clause 3 appears to be to give the Assembly's Audit Committee the power to require a wider class of persons to attend to give evidence and produce documents. That power would be limited only by the requirement that the person's attendance be relevant to the Auditor General's report that the Audit Committee is considering.

Under the present section 95 of the Government of Wales Act 1998, which deals with the Auditor General's existing right of access to documents and information, the Auditor General is entitled to all documents relating to the accounts of any relevant person. For example, if the Auditor General is conducting an audit of a body mentioned in schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act, the documents

relating to that body's accounts may or may not be in the hands of a person who is a member of or a member of staff of that body.

Section 74 of the Government of Wales Act permits the summoning only of persons who are members of or members of staff of bodies or offices mentioned in schedules 4 and 5 of that Act. Consequently, there is already a difference between the categories of persons who may be holding or controlling a relevant document and the categories of persons who may be summoned to appear before the Audit Committee. That is because the Audit Committee is principally concerned with having before it the relevant members or members of staff of the body about which the Auditor General for Wales has prepared his report, so that those persons can be questioned on the report.

I echo what the hon. Member for Caernarfon said about the fact that the work of the Audit Committee in the Assembly has been first class. We recognise that, and there are lessons to be learned for government throughout the United Kingdom from the openness and transparency with which things have been done in Cardiff. We could all reflect on the benefits of that in a wider context.

Extending the Audit Committee's power as the new clause proposes may result in an increased regulatory burden. Having already been subject to the wider powers of access of the Auditor General, a person may become subject to attendance before the Audit Committee. The attendance of witnesses is covered by National Assembly Standing Orders, and I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that that is the most appropriate way of dealing with the issue. My understanding is that there have been no problems in practice.

I do not want to seem as if I am dismissing the valid points raised by the hon. Gentleman, but before considering the new clause, it would have to be demonstrated to me that there is a problem in the existing operation. I am not satisfied that such a problem exists, so I invite him to withdraw the new clause.

Mr Hywel Williams (Spokesperson (Disability; Health; Social Security; Work and Pensions); Caernarfon, Plaid Cymru)

I take the Minister's point, although I already said that problems would not arise in the ordinary course of events, and I was glad to hear his words about the value of the Committee's work. On the basis of those two points, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

I thank you, Mr. Griffiths, on behalf of all members of the Committee, for the excellent way in which you have chaired today's proceedings. The fact that we have completed our deliberations by four o'clock is down to your patience, guidance and good humour. I should also like to thank all members of the Committee for their contributions. We have had a good standard of debate.

Opposition Members made an important contribution to the smooth running of the process. The hon. Member for Leominster has done sterling work

and has been up to the task. The information I was able to impart about the Government's intention to seek to remove the prison sanction for a breach of clause 54 will enable him to face his colleagues in the other House; he has gained as much by probing and pressing as they did.

The hon. Members for Caernarfon and for Brecon and Radnorshire also made important contributions. We have completed our deliberations in record time. My especial thanks go to my hon. Friends for their contribution in speeding up the process and ensuring that we have completed our business. I also extend my thanks to the Doorkeepers. I am sure that they are pleased that ensuring that the doors were locked for Divisions proved not to be too great a task. My thanks go also to the police, the Clerks and the Officers for helping us carry out our business today.

We have gone through the Bill fairly quickly, but there have been good speeches and good debates. That demonstrates the value of pre-legislative scrutiny. A great deal of work had already been done in the pre-legislative stage, which helped the Government to make changes and amendments to the Bill before it came before us for final consideration. We all recognise the value of that. It is down to us. Certainly the pre-legislative scrutiny carried out by the Welsh Affairs Committee on Wales-only Bills has been of great value to us all in ensuring that we make better legislation.

Our warmest thanks go to you, Mr. Griffiths. I do not know if we will sit under your chairmanship again before you retire—perhaps you know the date of the general election. Certainly if we are fortunate enough to do so I have no doubt that we will see our business progress in a good and useful way, which will ensure that as legislators we are seen to do our best on behalf of the people whom we represent.

Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)

Let me echo the Minister's kind words to you, Mr. Griffiths. I, too, am grateful to you for your excellent chairmanship, and to the Doorkeepers, the police, the Clerks and everyone who has worked so hard to ensure that the Bill is successful.

The Minister made a valuable point when he said that much of the work that had been to improve the Bill was done at the pre-legislative stage. Obviously we all pay tribute to the Select Committee for their work. The most important thing about pre-legislative scrutiny is that the Government listen. That is probably the key lesson from this. The Government have been listening during today's Committee stage,

during the Bill's passage in the other place, and during the pre-legislative scrutiny. They put their mind to delivering the best possible Bill for the people of Wales. I am glad that we have all been able to contribute in some small way to improving that.

That leads me to thank the Minister for changing the prison sanctions in the Bill. He is right to say that it is always worrying for the Opposition when a Bill finishes more quickly than usual, but it has been important that we demonstrate not only that this is a Bill that the Assembly asked for, but that we want it to go through in the best possible form. We have all done our best today to ensure that that happens. I echo the Minister's thanks to you, Mr. Griffiths, and to everyone who has contributed.

Mr Hywel Williams (Spokesperson (Disability; Health; Social Security; Work and Pensions); Caernarfon, Plaid Cymru)

I thank you, Mr. Griffiths for chairing the Committee with your usual courtesy and expertise. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Leominster, who has shouldered most of the burden for the Opposition. He has been standing up and sitting down quite a lot today; I hope that his knees stand the pace.

I also thank the Minister, especially in relation to clause 54; I was glad to hear the news about that proposal, because there has been cause for concern, and to hear what he said today and on Second Reading. I am sure we are all glad that the Bill has gone through its Committee stage so quickly.

I noticed as I came into Committee Room 12 that Committee Rooms now have names. This Room is named after a distinguished Prime Minister and Member of the Upper House, and is known as the Grey Room, which is a misnomer as our debates on the Bill have been entertaining and colourful.

Mr Roger Williams (Shadow Minister (Rural Affairs), Environment, Food & Rural Affairs; Brecon & Radnorshire, Liberal Democrat)

I, too, echo the thanks already expressed for your chairmanship, Mr. Griffiths, and for the contributions of everyone who made the Committee stage so successful. The Welsh Affairs Committee is already carrying out pre-legislative scrutiny on the draft Transport (Wales) Bill, using an innovative method and working more closely the National Assembly for Wales, which augurs well for future work. I look forward to that Bill going through the House. It has a fair amount of support among the parties represented in this Committee, and it will raise interesting issues, which we look forward to discussing.

Bill, as amended, to be reported.

Committee rose at twelve minutes past Four o'clock.