Clause 12 - Local government bodies in Wales
Public Audit (Wales) Bill [Lords]
10:45 am

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

I beg to move amendment No. 47, in page 11, line 38, leave out paragraph (g) and insert—

'(g) a fire and rescue authority in Wales constituted by a scheme under section 2 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 or a scheme to which section 4 of that Act applies;'.

Mr Win Griffiths (Bridgend, Labour)

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 49 and 54.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

I shall be brief in speaking to these amendments, which take account of the effect of the Fire and Rescue Services Bill on this Bill. The Fire and Rescue Services Bill will replace fire authorities with fire and rescue authorities. The amendments will change the three relevant references in the Bill in clauses 12 and 46 and schedule 1. The Fire and Rescue

Services Bill has completed its passage through the House. Consideration on Report in another place in scheduled for early July and the debate on Third Reading will take place before the end of July. There is a reasonable expectation that it will receive Royal Assent in this parliamentary Session, so I hope that the Committee will allow the amendments to stand.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 3, in clause 12, page 12, line 7, leave out 'or substantially'.

Our discussions on this amendment should be quick because it deals with a subject that we have already covered. I am glad that the Committee has been proceeding with a degree of humour—who says that audit is humourless? Amendment No. 3 would delete from clause 12(3)(b) the words ''or substantially'', which also appear in clause 1(2)(b). The phrase ''substantially funded'' is too vague and has a wide-ranging interpretation. What exactly is meant by

''substantially funded from public money''?

Will the Minister clarify what private sector bodies might be included under paragraph (b) as being substantially funded from public money? I know that he dealt with that question earlier, but this is an important subject and I am sure that he will clarify the situation for anyone with doubts over what ''substantially'' adds to the Bill.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

The amendment also deals with the definition of ''public body'' in the context of enabling the National Assembly by order to amend the categories of body defined as local government bodies in Wales to take account of future circumstances. The definition used in clause 12 is consistent with that used in clause 1, which we considered earlier. Again, the amendment could have an unnecessarily restrictive effect.

The purpose of the definition in clause 12, and the rest of the Bill, is to maximise the scrutiny and safeguards in respect of the use of public money. The amendment would undermine that intention. It would mean that a category of body wholly funded by public money could be added to clause 12(1), but a category of body that derived anything less than 100 per cent. of its funding from the public purse could not.

As I emphasised earlier, many public bodies do not receive all their funding from a public source. For example, a body could not be added to clause 12(1) if it raised a proportion of its funding from income derived from the provision of services. In that case, the body could not be added unless it was clearly carrying out public functions. Income derived from fees or leisure-related receipts, such as theatre tickets or leisure centre admissions, would not count as public funding if the amendment was accepted. With that explanation, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reflect further and withdraw the amendment.

Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)

Indeed. I am grateful to the Minister for that reply and, as I hinted earlier, I suspected that that would be the case. Having reflected further, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.