Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 45, in page 9, line 18, at end insert

'for no more than three months'.

The amendment is based on discussions in another place about why the clause is worded as it is. It is a probing amendment to ascertain how long the office of the Auditor General could be left vacant or how long the post could be filled by a temporary replacement, while the Auditor General is incapable of discharging his duties, before the temporary appointee becomes permanent, and is therefore appointed by the Crown as opposed to the Audit Commission. There is a need to specify a time scale in the Auditor General's absence, and that is the sole purpose of the amendment. Three months is an acceptable period, but that may not fit in with the Government's views. However, instead of opposing my amendment, I hope that they will recognise its value and that if they are not happy with the time frame of three months, they will change it.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

The amendment would limit to three months the period for which the Audit Committee may designate a member of the Auditor General's staff as the Wales Audit Office's temporary accounting officer. That is an arbitrary and inappropriate time limit. The Bill makes provision designating the Auditor General as the accounting officer for Wales for the Wales Audit Office. The consequence of such an amendment would be that if the post of Auditor General became vacant, or the Auditor General was incapacitated for more than three months, the Audit Committee would have to consider alternative arrangements with a view to making a fresh temporary appointment.

Under existing accountancy officer conventions for England and Wales, arrangements are made for designating an acting accounting officer if the accounting officer is incapacitated for four weeks or more. There is no reason to suppose that similar arrangements will not apply in the Wales Audit Office. If an acting accounting officer is competent to perform the duties, there is no reason why he or she should not continue them until the appointment of a new Auditor General or until his or her return to work. The amendment would also create an inconsistency with other statutory arrangements for the designation of acting accounting officers—for example, in respect of the Welsh Administration ombudsman under the

Government of Wales Act 1998. I hope that the hon. Gentleman finds that helpful, and that he will therefore ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)

The amendment makes the point that if we take the Auditor General seriously, we need to know how long Wales can cope without one. We suggested three months for a temporary Auditor General. I accept the Minister's criticism that that is an arbitrary time, which it is, but as I said earlier, we take the Bill, which we support, seriously. It is an important change in the law. By tabling the amendment we hope to ascertain how long the Government feel the gap should be left open or filled by a temporary or designated member of staff. In order to give the Auditor General the credibility that he deserves, we should know how for long he can be incapacitated before his important role is permanently filled. I accept that some flexibility could be built into the wording; that is what the amendment is designed to probe. I hope that the Minister will say how long the gap can be left open or whether another body should have the ability to decide on the period. It is important not to leave the office of Auditor General potentially unfilled by a permanent appointment for an unspecified period.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Wales), Department for Constitutional Affairs; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

The hon. Gentleman referred to appointment by the Crown rather than by the Audit Commission. The current provision allows a temporary accounting officer to be appointed by the Audit Committee, not the Crown or the Audit Commission. As I said, under existing accountancy conventions for England and Wales, arrangements are made for designating an acting accounting officer if the accounting officer is incapacitated for four weeks or more. How long that would continue would be at the Audit Committee's discretion, and his terms and conditions of appointment would be part of that; for example, there would be statutory sick leave. We are keen not to tie anyone's hands by having a fixed and arbitrary period of three months, as suggested by the amendment. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that within four weeks steps would be taken and terms and conditions on the appointment would kick in and affect the length of time that a person might be permitted to be away before further action had to be taken.

Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)

As I now understand it, there will be a four-week period during which the Auditor General might be a bit iffy. Thereafter the role would be filled by a temporary appointment. Obviously we would have to wait to ascertain the nature of his discomfort or inability. I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning that this eventuality would be written into his contract. I agree that the amendment does not attempt to tie people's hands. The Minister's replies have made me feel far more comfortable about the nature of the Bill. Anyone who wonders how long the Auditor General can be absent will need to know the nature of his terms and conditions. I doubt whether they will be privy to them, but at least we know that

that will be taken into account. That is all we sought to do with the amendment. I am delighted with the Minister's reply. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.