Clause 4 - Studies at request of educational bodies
Public Audit (Wales) Bill [Lords]
10:00 am
Mr Bill Wiggin (Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Local and Devolved Government Affairs; Leominster, Conservative)
The amendments relate to value-for-money studies of educational bodies and the audit aspect of clause 4. We welcome value-for-money studies being carried out by the Auditor General in educational bodies, but they can be carried out only at the request of the educational body. That places
educational bodies in a position totally different from that of the bodies covered by clause 3, which the Auditor General can study at will. Why is there special treatment for educational institutions?
Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 would remove the need for consent. Amendment No. 10 offers an alternative to amendment No. 9 by adding at the end of line 14
''or if he considers it appropriate to do so.''
That would give the Auditor General back his power to initiate studies rather than rely solely on the consent of educational bodies. We do not believe that the initiative for studies should be left to the bodies themselves. Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 are probing amendments designed to ask the Minister to explain why these bodies are allowed to request value-for-money studies. They receive large amounts of public money, so it is important that the value for money of those funds is studied.
Amendment No. 11 is a probing amendment to discover whether the clause is drafted to be consistent with past legislation relating to educational bodies, and I hope that the Minister will explain subsection (7). If we simply allowed educational bodies to request to be studied, it would not be surprising if they did not choose to volunteer for scrutiny if there was any doubt whether all was well. The Auditor General's powers to study relevant bodies in clause 3 should apply to educational bodies. He should not have to depend on bodies requesting him to initiate studies. The Bill puts education authorities in a more protected position, so in that area the Bill fails to provide strong provision for public audit in Wales.
Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 concern the audit aspect of clause 4. In proposed section 145B(5), the Auditor General can advise higher and further education corporations on the appointment of auditors, or arrange for a member of his staff to be appointed auditor, but he himself cannot be appointed auditor. Amendment No. 12 would rectify that omission. Proposed new subsection (5) would allow the Auditor General to appoint a member of his staff as auditor to a higher or further education establishment. Amendment No. 13 merely seeks to ensure that the member of staff is qualified properly, in line with the qualification specified in clause 14.
We worry about the coherence of the Bill. Baroness Noakes described it in another place as
''a patchwork of different provisions culled from here, there and everywhere.''—[Official Report, House of Lords, 23 February 2004; Vol. 658, c. GC25.]
I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity to consider the amendments, which would ensure that the Bill did not prescribe different standards.