Clause 64 - Commencement and extent
Mental Capacity Bill
4:45 pm
Mr Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Home Affairs; Daventry, Conservative)
I beg to move amendment No. 69, in
clause 64, page 33, line 21, leave out subsection (3).
The purpose of the amendment was to probe the legislation's interaction not with foreign countries but with the British Isles, if I may use the wider term. The Minister is well aware, as I am, that there is a devolved Administration in Scotland and separate arrangements for Northern Ireland, and that the Bill extends to England and Wales only. In tabling the amendment, I was also concerned about people who may have connections to the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, for example. Those are extremely technical matters, and it would be convenient for the Committee if the Minister were to respond to my concerns in the context of the letter that he has already promised about The Hague convention, which is of course concerned with foreign jurisdictions. The subject of my amendment would fit in perfectly well, and its purpose is only to ensure that the legislation works properly for all people who lack capacity wherever they may be, and that our Bill is comprehensive enough to cover them.
Mr David Lammy (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Constitutional Affairs; Tottenham, Labour)
I shall of course include a response to the hon. Gentleman's concerns in the letter that I have undertaken to write to him.
Mr Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Home Affairs; Daventry, Conservative)
With that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 64 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 65 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Question proposed, That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.
Mr David Lammy (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Constitutional Affairs; Tottenham, Labour)
This Committee has been conducted in a spirit of seeking to make the legislation better, especially for vulnerable people who lack capacity. I am grateful for the spirit in which the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam has made his contributions. It would be remiss of me if I did not pay tribute to the work of those on this Committee who were also on the Joint Committee, and brought their expertise to bear. I am thinking of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) and the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning). My hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt), acting as Parliamentary Private Secretary, also made an important contribution on the Joint Committee.
We have discussed some sensitive issues, and those discussions will continue in another place. My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) and the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) have made an important contribution. It has been important to reassure people outside the House about the intent of the Bill, and particularly its sensitive areas. I should also remember my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston, who has continued to campaign on such matters, and my
right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), for the work that he does with the General Medical Council and the expertise that he has brought to bear.
As usual, the Bill has been extremely well whipped by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, East (Ms Prentice)—so much so that we are able to complete the business before time. We are also grateful for all the work of the officials and Clerks on this Committee. They bring a great deal of expertise, so that we can get on with the work of scrutinising the Bill and getting the best legislation.
Mr Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Home Affairs; Daventry, Conservative)
I begin by thanking you, Mr. Cran, and your colleague Mr. Hurst for a chairmanship that has been beneficent and urbane, but always perceptive and attentive to us. We have enjoyed that, and it has helped to set the tone of the Committee.
I also thank the Clerks; it is always a joy for Opposition Members to be able to access their expertise and their advice. I thank the Hansard writers, who have dealt with the more oblique remarks that we have made from time to time with a remarkable strike rate and a high level of success. I also thank the police. This has been a knife-edge Committee, in which anything could have happened, but none of it has—[Laughter.]
Going round the Room geographically, as it were—I first thank the two Ministers. We do not always receive very full or positive responses from Ministers—I do not intend to debate that—but on this Committee they have made a real effort to provide responses and I am grateful for that. I am also grateful for the contributions made by Government Back Benchers, which, without exception, were helpful and contributed to the general tone of the Committee. It has been a much better Committee for that.
I hope that I may also say obliquely—they would be self-effacing, of course—that it has been useful to have the presence nearby of officials, who have advised the Minister and somehow inspired the Committee to reach sensible conclusions.
I also thank the hon. Members for Sutton and Cheam and for Chesterfield—the two Pauls—who have anticipated many of the things that we have done. We have reached convergence, if not triangulation. They have contributed universally and almost entirely constructively.
Turning to my own side, I will deal with the walk-on parts. First there is my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) who, although he was empanelled, had other important duties, and has merely numinously expressed his Whiply presence from time to time. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) made clear to me his regret at not being able to attend, although empanelled, because he had important duties to perform with the Council of Europe. He wrote me a letter about that, which is open to any member of the Committee to read. He was concerned that he could not come, because he takes an interest in this matter.
Having dealt with the absent members of my side of the Committee, I would now like to refer to the powerful presence of my hon. Friend the Member for
Tiverton and Honiton and also to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton, both of whom have made a huge contribution. They have been immensely reassuring to me, and we have even enjoyed, in the margins of the longeurs of the Committee, making the odd amusing comment to one another.
Before I finish I would like to say, if it is not improper to do so, that we have benefited immensely from the Gallery. People in the Gallery are not allowed to say anything, which can be frustrating—it is a role that I have had on occasions. However, we all know that the feelings that they have expressed, and the correspondence and the briefings that we have received, have been of special value in the genuine effort to put together a working Committee to achieve an objective that we all share—to help people without mental capacity and those who have to make decisions on their behalf.
In conclusion I must say to the Minister that although this has all been sweetness and light, he should not assume that there will never be any moment of dissent in the future. None the less, I think that the Committee has been handled in the right way. At later stages there will be more to say.
Mr Paul Burstow (Shadow Secretary of State for Health, Health; Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)
The contributions that have been made on this question so far are beginning to sound like some of the speeches that are made at the count, thanking a whole host of individuals. They do, of course, deserve our thanks, particularly those who have to grapple with the ill-formed words that we submit as amendments, and turn them into something that you, Mr. Cran, are able to select so that we can pose our questions to Ministers. We on this side of the Committee have also benefited—certainly I have—from a number of contributions from organisations such as Citizens Advice and the Making Decisions Alliance, including suggestions for the wording of amendments, which have been invaluable in exploring the concerns of the Committee.
We have received some useful and detailed answers to some of the concerns that other hon. Members and I have raised in the Committee; I am grateful to the Ministers for those. We have also received useful reassurances and clarification about how the legislation will work in practice, and one or two useful undertakings to take matters away and consider them.
Ms Rosie Winterton (Minister of State, Department of Health; Doncaster Central, Labour)
More than one or two.
Mr Paul Burstow (Shadow Secretary of State for Health, Health; Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)
I will check the record, and I stand to be corrected. Perhaps there were many more that I did not notice at the time, but I look forward to their returning in a new guise as Government amendments in due course.
On behalf of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield, I express appreciation for the contributions made by all members of the Committee. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton has made particularly useful and insightful contributions from her experience, which ought not go without note.
However, there are still three things on which we need further reassurance: the withdrawing and withholding of treatment; lasting powers of attorney and advance decision making; and the question of advocacy, over which the Minister of State, Department of Health and I have exchanged views. I shall return to those issues at a later stage, but for now I thank the Ministers and everyone else.
Mr David Lammy (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Constitutional Affairs; Tottenham, Labour)
I would be remiss not to mention the work of Lord Filkin, who did much work in preparation for the Bill, with the Catholic Church as well as the stakeholders, many of whom have been in the Gallery. I also thank you, Mr. Cran, and your colleague Mr. Hurst, for the way in which you have chaired the Committee, and I hope that I come before you again.
Mr James Cran (Beverley and Holderness, Conservative)
Before I put the Question, I am allowed to say one or two words on behalf myself and my co-Chairman. We have both immensely enjoyed chairing this Committee. I have learned, as I am sure he has, the most enormous amount from listening to what all of you have had to say. I have always felt that the best of the House of Commons is what one hears in Committees such as this. There is an awful lot of light and not a great deal of heat—the Chamber of the House of Commons is precisely the opposite.
I offer you, Mr. Lammy, a slight apology. I did not mean to cut you off at the knees as you were speaking to your amendment, but I wanted to finish the Bill. We too thank all the officials, because without them nothing happens here, but particularly the person sitting on my left. The Clerks ensure that out of chaos comes order and, if I may say so, she has done that magnificently. Many thanks to all of you; it has been a great pleasure.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.
Committee rose at three minutes past Five o'clock.