Mr Tim Collins (Westmorland & Lonsdale, Conservative)

Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)

I should make it plain that there is an inevitable inter-relationship between clauses in a Bill as complex as this. Hon. Members will find that some amendments that apply to later clauses have been grouped with earlier clauses. It is immediately apparent, for example, that the debate on clause 1 is already touching on matters relating to clause 3. I have no problem with that, providing that members of the Committee understand that we shall debate the issues once, not twice.

Mr Tim Boswell (Daventry, Conservative)

Many of us from all parties will lament the absence of the former hon. Member for the Cities of London and Westminster, now Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, whom my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) and I much enjoyed when we led for our party. In his final years in this place, he would come in to Committees as a Back Bencher and delight them either with cricket stories—on which I did not feel as strongly as him—or with classical references, with which I cannot claim to match him but in which I shared an interest.

Germane to our consideration of the arts and humanities research council is the analogy between the ranks of Government Back Benchers attending the Committee and the formation of a Greek hoplite army; tightly grouped, working in a narrow phalanx and, above all, ensuring that nobody steps out of line. With the greatest respect to Ministers and Government Members, the difficulty is that that is a somewhat inflexible procedure. Some may be aware of the analogy of Apamanondus, who was the first Theban general to defeat the Spartans for 400 years. He caused them great distress, and a kind of psychological breakdown, at the battle of Lutra in 371 BC when he manoeuvred by concentrating his forces on the left and broke in to the hoplite formation, which fell down completely. That is the only Brookeism to which I shall treat the Committee this morning.

I hope that the Minister will not feel upset if I say that I agree with the clause; I indicated that on Second Reading and I do so again, as it is the right thing to do. I shall say a little about the reservations of my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, which I share, but the basic decision is right. It is right

to give the arts and humanities community a pukka research council, both as a matter of status and because it will enable it fully to access resources within the research council net.

I have a number of interests in the area. First, I am a humanities person through and through myself. Secondly—somewhat to my surprise, but it is amazing how training transfers—I sat for two years on a science research council in the late 1980s. Thirdly, I was Higher Education Minister when some of these ideas were beginning to be developed. The arts and humanities community's interest then, as now—judging from the briefing that I have seen—was in favour of a full research council. We should not stand in its way.

I have been reflecting—although I have not had time to access and check through all the files—on the arguments that were deployed in my time as a Minister for not creating a council. In a sense, the arguments are behind the reservations that my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale has already mentioned, and they are still matters on which Ministers need to reflect. Ministers need to be sensitive in dealing with the humanities in establishing the council.

Essentially, the problem is one of scale, and we should consider the characteristics and management of the higher education sector. For example, if we compare the proportion of vice-chancellors who come from a big science background, where they are used to managing substantial research teams and resources, with the proportion that come from an arts or humanities background, we see that there is a strong preponderance in favour of science.

Universities clearly require substantial resources to carry out their work—that point may also come up in later debates—and that does not exclude the humanities, which need library facilities, IT support and so forth. However, in a way that is not universally feasible in science, it is possible for a lone scholar to sit in a garret and puzzle a problem of philosophy, ancient history or logic and argue it through with a pen, paper and their own brain. That is the cultural and scale difference between the humanities and the sciences.

My hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale has already referred to the second reservation. It concerns the transfer that effectively farms the council off to the Department of Trade and Industry, of which I was not fully aware until I read the small print. If we are going to establish a research council, it would be inappropriate to leave it uniquely under the control of his Department. I notice that the Minister is nodding. The council has to transfer, as it cannot be half one and half the other.

There are some important sensitivities, to which the Minister could helpfully respond, about his Department's continuing relations with and interest in the arts and humanities. Indeed, he might want to say something about his relations with the sciences, and I shall return to that later. There are also particular interests among the arts and humanities world from other organisations and bodies that will remain at least under the general sponsorship and encouragement of

the Department. I am thinking of, for example, the British Academy and the British archaeological schools in Athens and Rome. These are matters in which the Minister and his successors will be taking an interest. We must also consider what is taught in schools, and progression issues. As we are slightly more at leisure this morning, it would be helpful if the Minister commented on those points.

The other area that featured in the theology of our decision about 10 years ago when I was Minister not to move to a full-blown research council concerned the future of the dual support funding. As the Minister will know, the funding is divided between the research councils' contracts or grant arrangements for service and the Higher Education Funding Council for England money, which is tied to the research assessment exercise and pays for blue-skies research. Ministers are rightly anxious to defend and maintain that distinction.

We must take note, although perhaps in a different context from this morning, that Lord May—a former chief scientist whom I greatly respect—said cheerfully that we could allocate all funding through the research councils, simplify the system and not bother with the HEFCE research funding. That would not be appropriate, but the Minister might want to comment on it.

I have several points that I should like to list solely to get them out of the way so that I do not need to intervene on later amendments. First, will the Minister confirm that the charter of the proposed council will provide for an ability to receive and deploy external funds? I remember from my time on a research council that although the prime funding—about 90 per cent.—was through the Government department that became the OST in due course, there was a significant amount of private sector funding. I imagine that the Minister will not want to discourage external funding, whether it is through endowment, commercial contracts, intellectual property or whatever.

The second point, which relates to external activities, is probably covered sufficiently by clause 8. I am sure that the Minister will endorse my view that there are important academic linkages. The academic world is not confined to the UK or even parts of the UK, important as some of us think they are; I have a Welsh wife, so I have an interest in those clauses, too. Most academics, particularly in the world of the internet, converse academically, and collaborate and associate themselves with a wide range of scholars and researchers throughout the world. We all want such practices to happen and we do not want them to be in any way inhibited.

Clause 8 states that nothing should restrict the activities of the arts and humanities research council to the UK or to any constituent part of the UK. That is a fairly simple and unequivocal statement, but perhaps the Minister can say whether it extends equally to the activities of scholars and researchers who are supported by the council and whether there are inhibitions on that.

I shall simply flag up the third point, because it is the subject of a later amendment. It concerns the need to ensure that any legal undertakings that have been concluded by the AHRB, and in particular its obligations to staff, are fully recognised and transferred.

When in government, we faced a situation in which the sector wanted a change and there was pressure for an arts and humanities research council. However, 10 years ago, we did not feel that the time was right. Indeed, I have emphasised some of the points that are more than purely theological or organisational. There are points of substance, on which my hon. Friend rightly questioned the Minister and which at least give rise to reservations about rushing into this process. As Sir Humphrey knew, Rome was not built in a day, and it has taken 10 years to get from the laying of the foundations, which I modestly hope I laid, to the fruition of the proposal today.

I am conscious that I could have made a cynical response at the time when I laid the foundations. I could have said, ''This is the way to block the proposal off, so that it might never be implemented'', but in fact I am quite happy that it has evolved through the way in which the Arts and Humanities Research Board has communicated with interested persons, developed authority and led the sector, and that the time is right to make this change. I pay tribute to the successive professors who have led the board; Laver, Eastwood and Crossick. I hope that I have not omitted one. There has been good leadership that has operated in a modest but effective way. The time has now come to move on, but we should not neglect the sensitivities. It is particularly important when there is such consensus on moving to this proposal that we do not pretend that there are no problems. We should simply deal with them in a grown-up way.

We all need to emphasise the importance of the arts and humanities in their own right. They are not irrelevant to the economic strength of the country. We are strong in many of those fields, and many of us would think it proper that we should be even if there were no economic worth to that. We must ensure that what the Minister is proposing, with an aura of good will on both sides of the Committee and a good deal of pressure to do so, delivers the result that we all want.

Mr Alan Johnson (Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills; Kingston upon Hull West & Hessle, Labour)

The points raised are perfectly valid. I am pleased that we have had the debate because we may, as you suggested Mr. Gale, be able to cover future debates on the clause more quickly.

I shall provide an outline for why we believe the proposal to be such an important step forward and, in doing so, pick up on the points raised by Opposition Members. I believe that this aspect of the Bill has unanimous support; in my seven months in the job, I have not heard a single argument against it. The measure brings to fruition a tremendous amount of work, and I applaud the hon. Member for Daventry on setting aspects of the initiative in motion 10 years ago. However, we must remember that establishing an arts

and humanities research council was a specific recommendation of the Dearing inquiry into higher education.

The Arts and Humanities Research Board completely supports the proposal, including placing the council under the responsibility of the Department of Trade and Industry. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the important reasons for doing that; if one research council remained in the DFES while the other seven were in the DTI, it would not have the same status. The AHRB has done a lot of work, as have the Office of Science and Technology, the DTI and the Government. A review of arts and humanities research—carried out internally but involving the devolved administrations and building on the Dearing and other recommendations—found that a fully fledged research council should be established. We believe that such a council gives proper recognition to the arts and humanities, which are important not only to the social fabric of the country, but to the economy and the interface with scientific research.

Part of the argument of the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale was about the business spin-offs from the council and its placement in the DTI. There are enormous business spin-offs. The creative industries, which accounted for 7.9 per cent. of our GDP in 2000, are growing at a rate of 9 per cent. a year. Tourism, which will be a major aspect of the research council, contributed £10.9 billion to export earnings in 2001 with the support of culture and heritage research. More than a third of overseas visitors cite the heritage sector as a prime reason for their visit.

Mr Tim Collins (Westmorland & Lonsdale, Conservative)

The Minister is right on that point, but he will recognise that responsibility for tourism promotion lies not with the DTI but with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Have officials in that Department been consulted and involved in the process?

Mr Alan Johnson (Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills; Kingston upon Hull West & Hessle, Labour)

Yes, they have. The DCMS might use the research council's resources for the reasons that the hon. Gentleman suggests. The central thrust of the hon. Gentleman's point was the priorities that he quoted. I reassure him that after the change, those priorities and everything associated with them from the OST will reflect the existence of the arts and humanities research council.

Research in the humanities makes an important contribution to the development of public policy. That is a link with the scientific community, which was another point raised by the hon. Gentleman. Embryology, surrogacy, human genetics and cloning, as ethical aspects of the research council, will have an important link with the rest of the research council's work.

Mr Tim Boswell (Daventry, Conservative)

In support of the Minister's argument, I point out that Ruth Deech, who will be the first student complaints adjudicator, comes with a distinguished background in the humanities and with service on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. She is exactly the kind of person who stands with the humanities tradition in dealing with

important matters, which in her previous activity were germane to the conduct of scientific research and the development of medical techniques.

Mr Alan Johnson (Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills; Kingston upon Hull West & Hessle, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am glad that he read that in to the record.

Before I turn to the meat of clause 1, I should bring one other issue to your attention, Mr. Gale. As Committee members will know, the arts and humanities research council, like existing research councils, will operate throughout the UK and the primary legislation involves the UK Parliament legislating on a matter previously devolved to Scotland. By convention, there will be a Sewel motion in the Scottish Parliament. I understand that that is likely to be formally moved without debate in the Scottish Parliament on Thursday. We will know by the subsequent sitting whether that process has been completed. Our consideration of the clauses on the arts and humanities research council in so far as they relate to Scotland is framed by the Government's commitment to seek the consent of the Scottish Parliament when it plans to legislate on a devolved area at Westminster.

Clause 1 defines the AHRC as a body to be set up by royal charter. We are not establishing the body here. I think that we have distributed copies of the charter to Committee members. The charter provides, in broad terms, for the governance of the AHRC, its accountability to the taxpayer and the appointment of its senior officials, including the chief executive. I am advised that the chief executive was appointed by open competition in the normal way against the advertised job specification, and a splendid choice he is. Without clause 1, the AHRC would not be established and everyone agrees that that would be of great detriment to the research community.

The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale raised an important point when he spoke about the social sciences. The Economic and Social Research Council most closely equates to the arts and humanities research council. I remind him that when the idea emerged of putting social sciences under a research council under the Department of Trade and Industry, similar concerns were rightly expressed. However, with the passage of time it has proved to be successful and no one would argue that the council ought to be anywhere other than under the DTI.

I cannot remember who quoted the figure of £78 million that will transfer across. No significant savings are to be found in turning the board in to a research council. I can give the hon. Member for Daventry the assurance that he sought; we will debate the terms and conditions of the staff and they will be fully protected. There are some synergies but no significant savings. Resource transfers will make the change neutral in terms of funding for arts and humanities research. In the recent spending review, research funding increased and that increased research funding will transfer over to the research council.

Mr Phil Willis (Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Education & Skills; Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

We accept that staff will be protected and that the resources will be transferred over, so there is no reason to question the Minister on that. We are concerned about the redistribution of resources in the future. The resources will all come through one Department, the DTI. Will the Department be able to give 90 per cent. of the total cake to science and technology, for instance, and squeeze arts and humanities research significantly? How will measures be put in place that ensure an equitable distribution of resources to the various research councils?

Mr Alan Johnson (Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills; Kingston upon Hull West & Hessle, Labour)

We have a specific amendment that relates precisely to that example, including the terms 90 per cent. and 10 per cent. Of course, unlike the funding councils, who allocate money on a much more methodological system, the research councils allocate money by peer review in response to specific applications and specific projects. That is an important definition. There is no question of the arts and humanities research council being any different from the other eight research councils in being able to respond to applications.

Mr Tim Boswell (Daventry, Conservative)

Like me, the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough is perhaps feeling for some sense that Ministers at the DFES will continue to take an interest in the allocation of the money. Of course, it would be unreasonable to ask them to do the OST's job or that of the DTI, but I hope that they will at least undertake to make friendly representations if they feel that an imbalance has developed in the treatment the arts and humanities, the social sciences or, conceivably, the natural sciences.

Mr Alan Johnson (Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills; Kingston upon Hull West & Hessle, Labour)

I shall deal with that now. Let me clarify the situation as regards the OST consultation on dual support and the consultation on the research assessment exercise, which is due to be announced today. The Committee that deals with those issues includes myself, Lord Sainsbury and all the major players, and will ultimately decide how the research council's funding works. Therefore, DFES input is definitely part of the process.

The hon. Member for Daventry raised the important issue of Apamanondus and the hoplite formation, but enough has been said about that. The issue has dominated the tabloids for weeks, and we need not dwell on it further. He also asked for reassurance as regards dual support, but he knows that that has already been given in the White Paper and in the letter that Lord Sainsbury and I recently sent to all the research councils. We believe that dual support is essential, and the vast majority of those in the research and higher education communities are with us on that. Even Lord May, whom I admire as much the hon. Member for Daventry does, has said that he is not calling for the end of dual support and that he is talking about something else; I am not exactly sure what, but that is what he claims. So I think there is unanimity on the issue and we certainly believe that dual support should continue.

Mr Phil Willis (Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Education & Skills; Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

The Minister raises an important issue. We should not dismiss Lord May as a crank; he is an eminent researcher, and his views reflect what the Secretary of State said at the time of the White Paper. The Government's view was that there would be research-only and teaching-only universities. There is surely logic in what Lord May said, because if we go down the proposed road, the division between research and teaching will demand a different form of funding for research universities.

Mr Alan Johnson (Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills; Kingston upon Hull West & Hessle, Labour)

I fully accept that, and I hope that none of my comments suggested that Lord May was anything other than an eminent and valuable contributor to the debate. I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman's comments.

The hon. Member for Daventry asked for a reassurance as regards international links. I will give him that, although I should point out that a later Opposition amendment would damage those links. However, we shall debate that in due course. With those comments, however, I ask the Committee to agree that the clause should stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.