Clause 8 - Transfer of property and staff etc.
Health Protection Agency Bill [Lords]
10:30 am
Dr Andrew Murrison (Shadow Minister, Public Services, Health & Education; Westbury, Conservative)
I missed my chance to raise a couple of points in the debate on the previous clause, and hope to return to them later.
I shall be brief on this clause, which is long, complicated and necessary. I have no particular difficulty with it. However, I worry about the transfer of property rights and liabilities to the agency from its predecessor bodies, especially as that will be done on the authority's say so. I am ever so slightly concerned that, because the way in which that can be done is subject to the agreement of a number of agencies, there is potential for conflict. I wonder about the arrangements for arbitration. Who is to decide whether particular pieces of property and liabilities and so on are to be transferred to the new agency from its predecessor bodies, who might object and under what circumstances would such objections be upheld?
I return to the point that I made in connection with a previous clause, when I pointed out the potential for difficulty in deciding which of the devolved assemblies and Parliaments would be liable for financial contributions to the agency, how much those would be and what accounts might be presented to support such contributions. I am trying to delve into the interface between the agency, its predecessor bodies and the authorities that are listed. How will they co-operate? As we have discussed, co-operation is a grey area. Nevertheless, I want to know how the authorities will co-operate to determine what can and cannot be transferred. There is usually room for misunderstanding and confusion in property matters, and it would be nice to know what functions have been
transferred to the new agency and what arbitration exists to ensure that conflict is avoided and that satisfactory resolutions are arrived at.
Miss Melanie Johnson (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Health; Welwyn Hatfield, Labour)
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's questions. As I said in relation to paragraph 19 to schedule 1, the Government are clear that the devolved assemblies need to pick up the bill for whatever they want to be commissioned or whatever services they want the HPA to provide. They therefore need to pay for and receive the service that they pay to receive. Under paragraph 19, they will not get a service that they are not paying to receive.
Dr Andrew Murrison (Shadow Minister, Public Services, Health & Education; Westbury, Conservative)
I am grateful for that clarification, which is quite important. It is what I was trying to establish in relation to a previous clause. Is the Minister saying that this will be a ''pay as you go'' type of set-up under which the authorities will pay for what they demand and receive from the agency? I believe that that is the burden of what she just said.
Miss Melanie Johnson (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Health; Welwyn Hatfield, Labour)
Indeed. That is what I said in relation to schedule 1. It is for the HPA to agree with the devolved assemblies the work that it is doing for them, the cost of that work and the fact that the cost will come across in order to fund the level of service that is required. That is exactly what paragraph 19 to schedule 1 does.
The hon. Gentleman asked a related question on the transfer of property. The requirements to consult the devolved assemblies reflect the fact that they are all joint stakeholders or owners of the NRPB. There is no need for dispute resolution. All Departments agree the contents of the Bill, and the agency will take on the rights of predecessor bodies in that regard. There is always discussion among parts of government about how progress will be made, but that is the usual process of government. It happens every day of the week in a million different ways throughout the United Kingdom, especially now that we have devolution. Nothing is different in this respect. There will be no need for dispute resolution for the reasons that I have just given.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 2 agreed to.