Mr Phil Hope (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister; Corby, Labour/Co-operative)

I beg to move amendment No. 168, in

clause 59, page 26, line 6, at end insert—

'(1A) In its application to Wales, section 21(6) has effect with the omission of the words ''and lay before Parliament''.

(1B) In its application to Wales, section 24 has effect as if for ''report to Parliament'' there were substituted ''publish a report''.'.

The amendment seeks to ensure that an appropriate procedure applies to the fire and rescue service framework for Wales. Laying the framework before the UK Parliament, and reporting to Parliament on authorities' compliance and on the steps taken by the National Assembly for Wales to ensure it, would cut across the overall intent of the clause. That is to ensure that the powers exercisable by the Secretary of State for English fire and rescue authorities are exercisable by the National Assembly for Wales for Welsh fire and rescue authorities. The amendment therefore deletes

the references to Parliament in clause 21(6) and clause 24, leaving the method of publication and report to the discretion of the National Assembly for Wales.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Mr Richard Younger-Ross (Shadow Minister, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister Local Government & the Regions; Teignbridge, Liberal Democrat)

Does not the Under-Secretary think that the devolved powers that he has given to Wales should also be devolved to the elected English regional assemblies when we have them?

Mr Philip Hammond (Runnymede & Weybridge, Conservative)

I have a different question for the Under-Secretary. I understand entirely the intention of the clause, but it substitutes a reference to the National Assembly for Wales for every reference to the Secretary of State throughout parts 1 to 6 of the Bill, including clause 33 on pensions. When we dealt with that in the context of Scotland, we noted that pensions were not a devolved matter but remained a United Kingdom matter to be dealt with by the Secretary of State. I am therefore bound to ask why there is not a ''saving to'' provision in the clause which leaves the reference to the Secretary of State in clause 33 on pensions.

Mr Phil Hope (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister; Corby, Labour/Co-operative)

In response to the hon. Member for Teignbridge, I can tell the Committee that the clause concerns powers relating to Wales and not to other regions in England. I understand that there is a new clause on which that debate may arise, and the hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity to make his points then.

On pensions, which are a reserved matter, as clause 33 makes clear, I am not certain what the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge seeks to establish.

Mr Philip Hammond (Runnymede & Weybridge, Conservative)

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. My reading of clause 59(1) is that, in every case where the words ''Secretary of State'' appear in parts 1 to 6 of the Bill, it has to be read in relation to Wales as though the words said ''National Assembly for Wales''. That would mean that the role of the Secretary of State in clause 33 is, in effect, devolved to the National Assembly. That clause has to be read as allowing the National Assembly to do all the things that it is proposed that the Secretary of State should do. My understanding was that that was not the intention, and that pensions in Wales, Scotland and England were to be dealt with by the Secretary of State from Whitehall as a reserved matter for the whole of the UK, or at least its three mainland nations.

Mr Phil Hope (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister; Corby, Labour/Co-operative)

On clause 33, it is my understanding that the powers will be devolved by a subsequent transfer of functions order. I can say no more than that. I hope that it gives the Committee an explanation. If matters are not clear, I will write to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr Philip Hammond (Runnymede & Weybridge, Conservative)

Is the Under-Secretary saying that responsibility for matters dealt with under clause 33 is to be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales, in

the case of Wales, but that it is not to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament in the case of Scotland? If that is the case, I would find it very peculiar.

Mr Phil Hope (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister; Corby, Labour/Co-operative)

The power to make a scheme will be devolved to the Scottish Executive; that is clear. In regard to Wales, the power will be devolved by a subsequent transfer of functions order, so there will not be the contradiction to which the hon. Gentleman alludes.

Mr Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield, Conservative)

Does the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge wish to reply?

Mr Philip Hammond (Runnymede & Weybridge, Conservative)

I do not want to take up any more of the Committee's time, Sir Nicholas. I am sure that I do not understand that explanation at all, and I am equally sure that the Under-Secretary does not either. Perhaps clarification will come to us in due course.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 59, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 60 and 61 ordered to stand part of the Bill.