Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Bill [Lords]
Mrs Marion Roe (Broxbourne, Conservative)
Order. As it is very warm in this Room, hon. Members may remove their jackets. I remind Members that copies of the programme motion are available in the Room and that it supersedes the order of consideration motion on the amendment paper.
Mr Paul Goggins (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Home Office; Wythenshawe and Sale East, Labour)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) during proceedings on the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Bill [Lords] the Standing Committee shall meet on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 9.10 a.m. and 2.30 p.m.;
(2) 10 sittings shall be allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Committee;
(3) the proceedings shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 16, Schedule 1, Clause 17, Schedule 2, Clauses 18 to 20, Schedule 3, Clauses 21 to 24, Schedule 4, Clause 25, Schedule 5, Clauses 26 to 30, Schedule 6, Clauses 31 to 34, Schedules 7 and 8, Clause 35, Schedule 9, Clauses 36 to 39, New Clauses, New Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) proceedings on the Bill shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 6.55 p.m. on Tuesday 6th July 2004.
It is a pleasure, Dame Marion, to see you in the Chair. I know that I speak on behalf of the Committee in warmly congratulating you on your new title, and we shall learn to address you by it. On a different note personal to you, one of my responsibilities last year was to respond for the Government to the private Member's Bill on female genital mutilation, during which time I learned a lot about your significant contribution on that subject. It will be a pleasure to have you preside over our proceedings. I pay tribute to your work in this field.
We had a good Second Reading debate, and I do not intend to rehearse all the arguments now. The Bill deals with a number of important measures, strengthens the law on domestic violence, deals with a variety of new arrangements for victims and introduces a new offence of causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult. We made it clear on Second Reading that the Government intend to overturn four changes made to the Bill in the other place: two relate to the new offence, one relates to unfitness to plead and one relates to multiple offending. Various Members at various times promised us significant debate on those issues. I look forward to that.
We have already tabled amendments to bring the rights of victims of mentally disordered offenders in line with the rights of victims of serious offenders. I
shall shortly table amendments to bring parallel arrangements for Northern Ireland. Towards the end of last week we tabled an amendment to give the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority authority to recover money from offenders that has been paid in compensation. I have already made an informal commitment, and I make it again formally on the record, that we will soon table other amendments in relation to the victims' element of the Bill. Hon. Members from all parties will look forward to studying them closely. We will also introduce amendments on fine enforcement, which will command the support of the whole Committee.
Our discussions so far on the substance of the Bill and the timetabling of our deliberations have been consensual. That should be the spirit of the Committee. We will be flexible. We have already agreed that there may be fewer sittings than planned, or there may be more, but however many sittings there are, we will give the Bill thorough consideration so it goes back to the House in even better shape than it is in this morning. I reiterate that any Committee member can approach members of the Bill team for advice and to consult on and discuss any ideas or questions. We should be entirely open in our consideration of these matters.
Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Shadow Minister, Home, Constitutional & Legal Affairs; Chesham and Amersham, Conservative)
I echo the words of the Minister, Dame Marion. It is delightful to see you in the Chair, particularly as you have such a long track record. It is so nice to be able to call you Dame Marion, not Mrs. Roe, because it has a much better ring to it. The honour is greatly deserved.
We have pursued the Bill in both Houses in a constructive spirit. There are differences between the shape of the Bill as the Conservatives would like it to be and that which the Minister is proposing. I hope, Dame Marion, that we will not give you and Mr. Benton too much trouble. We are practising grown-up politics: perhaps that is why nobody takes any notice outside this Room and the Chamber. It is rather sad that that should happen when Parliament is doing its best.
As you will have noticed, Dame Marion, we are slightly top heavy on the Conservative side of the Opposition Bench. I am delighted that my hon. Friends the Members for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) and for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) will join me: we shall be boxing and coxing.
As the Minister said, a couple of issues need to be addressed. It has not escaped all our notices that part of the Bill is arriving at a very late stage. The train left the station six months ago in the Lords, and the other place has not had an opportunity to consider many of the Government amendments being put forward. Will the Minister comment on the position of their lordships' House so far as that is concerned and on what will happen when the Bill returns to the upper House? I would also like him to give a definite date for the tabling of the remaining amendments and assurances that they will be the last amendments tabled, other than those that may be negotiated during this Committee stage. The Government may be
minded to accept some, because of the powerful arguments of his hon. Friends and of Opposition Members.
It is fair to say that we were disappointed that various amendments were produced at such a late stage. It is a pity. I want the Minister's undertaking that should the Committee agree, by consensus, that we need extra time to consider provisions when they come forward, the usual channels will have the negotiations that we have anticipated and will have the power to extend the Committee stage or to arrange for any sitting to sit much later than planned. That aside, I look forward to our deliberations and, as the Minister said, I hope that we can produce a piece of legislation that does justice to the serious subjects that it covers.
Mr David Heath (Shadow Minister (Home Affairs), Home Affairs; Somerton and Frome, Liberal Democrat)
I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Dame Marion, and I echo the congratulations from both sides on your elevation. Having had the pleasure of serving on a previous Committee under your chairmanship, I know that we can look forward to expeditious consideration of the business and good order throughout. That is exactly what one would expect.
The Bill is important, but I hope that it does not require us to extend our proceedings unnaturally. We can fully debate the matters before us, and I hope that we will be able to do so within the time allocated.
The fact that the Government propose to overturn the improvements made to the Bill in another place gives me cause for concern and deep regret. The Government are wrong, and I look forward to arguing why that is so. Those in another place who amended the Bill did so for the right reason: to make it a better piece of legislation. I have every anticipation that if the Government reverse those changes in this House, the same amendments, or something similar, will return to us at a later stage, and the Bill will be thus delayed.
I also have concerns about the late introduction of the proposals now before us. From the sound of the Home Secretary's comments on them, we will welcome them, but, nevertheless, to bring them in at this stage gives cause for concern, not least because it has been suggested that that will require recommittal to another place. That seems unfortunate, because the Bill has brought about a great deal of consensus between the political parties about the right way forward. We welcome it, but we seek to improve it by addition and by resisting the Government's attempts to change what it contains as a result of efforts in another place. I hope that we will make speedy progress.
Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Assistant Chief Whip, Whips; Cotswold, Conservative)
On behalf of the usual channels, Dame Marion, I, too, welcome you to the Chair and add my congratulations on your elevation. It is good to hear that you have had that recognition, which is justly deserved.
The Bill is very important to many of our constituents, and many outside bodies will watch our progress with great interest. If the Bill in any way curbs some of the violence, distress and cruelty prevalent for too many people in this country, we will have done our constituents a great service.
I am certain that we will be able to make orderly progress through the Bill. I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale, East (Paul Goggins), and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) for the gracious way in which she opened. I also look forward to working with my hon. Friends the Members for Beaconsfield and for Epping Forest.
We oppose programme motions whenever and wherever they occur. Recently, I served on the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, in which we had, I think, the worst example of programming. Unprecedentedly, we had to come back for a second Standing Committee, during which another huge chunk was inserted into the Bill. Not content with that, the Government then had to insert yet another huge chunk on Report. To my mind, that was unacceptable.
Given the consensus in this Committee, I hope that the timetable will be acceptable; I believe that it is, and the usual channels have been accommodating in indicating flexibility, which I welcome. It is unfortunate, however, that, during the passage of a Bill that started in the House of Lords, the Government are going to overturn some key provisions discussed in six House of Lords sittings. Not only that, but they intend to add what may turn out to be completely consensual provisions on victims of crime at this stage of the Bill. For the sake of good order and conduct, it would have been a good idea to have thought about that and put it into the Lords Bill in the first place.
Having said that, I do not want to carp or to get the Committee off to a bad start. I look forward to working with you, Dame Marion, and no doubt with the Government, with all good humour and good speed to get this Bill on to the statute book.
Ms Vera Baird (Redcar, Labour)
I, too, congratulate you, Dame Marion. You have had a long engagement with this issue, and it is good that you are in the Chair.
I have tabled new clause 22, which is, at the moment, the tail-ender, and I raise the matter now while we are discussing programming and possible adjustments to it. The new clause was tabled by me alone, and it may therefore easily be regarded as of less than primary importance—[Hon. Members: ''No!'']. I am glad that I said that.
The new clause represents the Law Commission's provisional recommendations on the law of manslaughter, and that it why it is important to reach it. It would alter the law of provocation. As currently configured, that law allows men to be acquitted when they kill women in a sudden rush of anger, from relatively small provocation, but it does not allow women to be acquitted of murder when they kill from fear after long abuse. The Law Commission was specifically asked to inquire into that in the hope that it would be ready with proposals, so that we could get them into the Bill. It has reported only provisionally, but I understand that the final recommendations will be very similar, if not identical, to the current ones. Consequently, I tabled the new clause, in the hope that the Government would accept it. If not, I hope that it
will be debated as fully as possible, so that it, or a very similar provision, may be accepted in some future Bill at an early stage. I ask those in charge of programming to ensure that that clause will be reached in due course.
Mrs Ann Cryer (Keighley, Labour)
I add my congratulations, Dame Marion, and those of the all-party group on breast cancer. I am sure that all its members will be delighted by the news.
Has the Minister taken cognisance of my comments on Second Reading regarding a criminal offence of forcing to marry, or aiding or abetting that? He promised that he would. Will he table a new clause or an amendment along those lines?
Mr Paul Goggins (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Home Office; Wythenshawe and Sale East, Labour)
I can tell the hon. Members for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) and for Chesham and Amersham that the reason why the amendments on some of our proposed victim measures have come so late in the day is that we have had consultation on them; they are of interest to the public, and it was important that we got feedback, which is why we were not able to table them before. Now that the consultation is complete and we are clear on policy, we will bring forward the amendments we want to make. I cannot be precise as to the minute when they will be tabled, but I hope that it will happen in the next couple of days, which should give all Committee members time to consider them. I have learned in life, if not as a Minister, never to say never, but I hope they will be all the substantial further amendments that we intend to make. I do not envisage any major or controversial further amendments, although—who knows?—hon. Members may persuade me on one or two issues, and I may need to reconsider and bring further proposals to the Committee or to the House on Report.
My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer) mentioned forced marriages. I indicated on Second Reading that the Government were sympathetic to her argument. We are still considering how best that might be done in the Bill, and I will keep her and the Committee up to date with any conclusions that we reach.
I want to emphasise that, both here and in the other place, everything will be agreed in the usual way through the usual channels, but we have made it clear that we will be flexible. We will have more or fewer sittings as we need them, and we will ensure that there is ample time for all matters to be discussed, including the issues of provocation raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Redcar (Vera Baird). It is appropriate for the Committee to discuss that; I shall argue strongly that it is not appropriate for us to decide finally on the matter but helpful if we discuss it in detail, and there will be time for that.
I will be joined on the Front Bench by the Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Leslie), who will help us with certain matters, and by my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, who also has an honourable track record on these issues.
Question put and agreed to.
Mrs Marion Roe (Broxbourne, Conservative)
I remind the Committee that there is a money resolution in connection with this Bill, copies of which are available in the Room. I also remind members that adequate notice should be given of amendments. As a general rule, I do not intend to call starred amendments, including any that may be reached during an afternoon sitting of the Committee. I also remind members to switch off their mobile telephones.Clause 1 Breach of non-molestation order to be a criminal offence