Clause 4 - Inquiries initiated by Commissioner
Children Bill [Lords]
11:00 am
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)
I have listened to the debate with great interest because I could not be further away from Wales if I tried. It seems that two new rules of devolution are being propounded. One, which the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole propounds, is that if Wales chooses to act on a devolved matter, England must follow. The other, which the hon. Member for Cardiff, North propounds, is that if Wales decides to act on a non-devolved matter, England must not poke its nose in.
It is curious that what I believed to be a comprehensible, albeit in some respects flawed, devolution settlement is now being messed about with at both ends, and that we are being left with complete confusion about the underlying principles of devolution. It seems sensible that something is either a UK matter or a devolved matter, which is why I tabled the amendment that subsequently I did not move on Tuesday. I accept that, in different parts of the UK, some things are UK matters and other things are devolved, but the Bill leaves us with complete confusion. I suspect that this affects Ministers more than it affects me, because they are being asked to sort it out. Two completely different principles are being propounded by people who support the devolution settlement; they then ask a UK Minister to sort it out, but God help him if he sorts it out as he has—in a way that is not to the satisfaction of the Members from Wales.
I do not think that this is a perfect solution—I do not think that a perfect solution is possible—but the moment that the UK Minister proposes a solution that the hon. Member for Cardiff, North and other hon. Members from Wales do not like, they ask for it to be reviewed to keep the existing arrangement in Wales, even though that goes beyond the devolution settlement. I bet the Minister would not be encouraged to tell the Welsh commissioner to keep his nose out of non-devolved affairs, although that would be a perfectly reasonable attitude to take. Some things are devolved matters and some are not. Surely, therefore,
it should be for a commissioner established by the UK Parliament to take account of reserved matters, and for a commissioner appointed by the National Assembly for Wales to take account of devolved matters, but that approach does not seem to be acceptable to the hon. Member for Cardiff, North either.
Meanwhile, Welsh Members of this Committee vote on matters that affect only England, and could therefore affect the outcome of a vote, although they have not as yet. We are in a position in which if we are not careful, the devolution settlement will continually be pushed and pushed, not in debates on the principles, which, as the Under-Secretary said, is where such debates should take place, but in debates on individual aspects of devolution, such as the implementation of particular policies where they affect the devolution settlement.
The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams) says that we should legislate for what is happening, but fox hunting is happening and we do not seem to be too happy to legislate on that.
There has to be a hard-nosed approach to this matter, which says either, ''This is the devolution settlement, let's work within it,'' or, ''This is a UK Minister, let him put forward a solution, and let us accept it.'' Having said that, I like the idea suggested by the hon. Member for Cardiff, North, that the commissioner—I do not think of him as the commissioner for England, but as the Children's Commissioner established by the UK Parliament—should be empowered to delegate matters to the commissioners in the other countries. That proposal seems to be entirely sensible, but it does not appear to have been put forward as an amendment to the Bill.