Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Wales to the Committee. If he has come to deal with the two lines of clause 34, he has had an interrupted morning. Perhaps we shall hear more from him later. I could not let this little clause, two lines long as it is, go without comment. It states:

''In the application of this Chapter to local authorities in Wales, references to a Minister of the Crown include the National Assembly for Wales.''

I did not say what I said just now to the Minister for Local Government and the Regions without purpose. I led him into a trap, into which he fell beautifully. That has now put his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary into the position of needing to do some explaining. Whereas the Government are keeping control of devolution to London and the regions—the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill is hedged with huge controls over the regions—in Wales, by contrast, the Government are prepared to devolve everything, including financial powers.

I am sure that the Under-Secretary will confirm that exactly what the clause means is that the money will be given to the Welsh Assembly. Under clause 31(1), which I have already read out, it may disburse the money to any of its local authorities. It is entirely up to the Welsh Assembly how that money is disbursed. If my interpretation is correct that we have a fully devolved power for financial purposes, my next question for the Under-Secretary is: how does the Westminster Parliament, which gives the block grant

to Wales, retain control over that money? How does Parliament track that best value is being achieved from the spending of that money? How does it track that the money is not being defrauded or misappropriated?

We must ask those serious questions of those devolved functions, because while Westminster looks after the taxpayers' money that is raised throughout the United Kingdom, we have a responsibility to ensure that it is spent and disbursed properly. I look forward with interest, as always, to a courteous explanation from the Under-Secretary.

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Welsh Office; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

May I say at the outset, Mr. Conway, on my first appearance to speak in Committee, that I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship? I also express my deepest appreciation to you and your fellow Chairman, Mr. Griffiths, and to all colleagues on the Committee, for the understanding that has been shown for my absences. In the past few weeks I have served on three Bill Committees, including the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill Committee, like the hon. Member for Cotswold. I am grateful that my colleagues appreciate that.

The grant power in clause 31 will operate in Wales, whereas clause 34 provides that the grants will be awarded at the discretion of the National Assembly for Wales. As is probably made clear in clause 31(5), the Treasury's consent is required to award the grants in England. That consent will not be required in Wales because it is a matter for the National Assembly under the devolved settlement. The Assembly intends to put in place controls to ensure that that power is exercised prudently and properly.

I fear that we might rehear some of the arguments that we had in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill Committee with the hon. Gentleman. God has made it my mission in life to explain to the Tories what devolution means. It means that this Parliament has created a system of devolved government. That applies to Wales, and, under the Government of Wales Act 1998, a large number of responsibilities that the Secretary of State for Wales, in partnership with other Ministers, previously exercised are now the responsibility of the National Assembly. Clause 34 means that, under the devolution settlement, the Assembly has the power and the right already given to it by this Parliament to exercise those responsibilities. I constantly have to explain that to the hon. Member for Cotswold. I do not know how else to do it, other than to keep reiterating that that is what Parliament has decided.

Mr Martin Caton (Gower, Labour)

Is it not a cause for dismay that, although Conservatives in Wales—not all, but an increasing number—are beginning to understand the nature of devolution and want to work within the devolution settlement, we find that Conservatives in Westminster are still trying to re-fight the debate that we had at the time of the referendum?

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Welsh Office; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

I take my hon. Friend's point. Without testing your patience, Mr. Conway, in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill Committee we had difficulty in explaining to the Conservatives on an

amendment that they moved that the border of Wales did not touch the border of Greater London. I had to bring in an atlas to show them that.

This is a devolved matter, which is the responsibility of the National Assembly. The hon. Member for Cotswold was concerned that this place votes a block sum of money to the Assembly to meet the Assembly's expenditure requirements and needs. Yes it does. However, the Assembly is totally open. All its accounts are properly audited. The audit system operates in the Assembly as it does in any Department or aspect of government here. Indeed, the Assembly is ahead of us in terms of being more open and accountable.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I put it on the record that I was not seeking to re-open the devolution settlement. That has finished and the people of Wales voted on it. The hon. Gentleman is giving a useful explanation of matters, but will he explain precisely the Welsh Assembly's auditing methods? How do they mirror what the National Audit Office and the Audit Commission do for local authorities in England?

Mr Don Touhig (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Welsh Office; Islwyn, Labour/Co-operative)

The report on the Assembly's accounts goes to the Public Accounts Committee here. It is audited by the National Audit Office, so matters are open and transparent. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that all the measures taken by the Assembly to ensure that audit expenditure is properly accounted for are open.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 34 ordered to stand part of the Bill.