Clause 1 - Hunting wild mammals with dogs
Hunting (Re-committed) Bill
10:00 am

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

I beg to move amendment No. 1, in

clause 1, page 1, leave out line 6.

Mrs Marion Roe (Broxbourne, Conservative)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clauses 1 and 2 stand part.

Government amendment No. 4.

Clauses 5 to 9 and 11 to 42 stand part.

Government amendment No. 61.

Clauses 43 and 47 stand part.

Government amendment No. 42.

Clauses 49, 52, 54 and 55 stand part.

Government new clause 1—Subordinate legislation.

Government new clause 2—Commencement.

And the following amendments thereto:

New clause 2(a)——

in line 1, leave out 'three months' and insert 'one year'.

New clause 12——

'This Act shall come into force at the end of the period of one month beginning with the date on which it is passed.'.

That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.

Government amendment No. 51.

That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

The first of the amendments demonstrates the limpid simplicity of what is before us. Clause 1 states:

''A person commits an offence if he hunts a wild mammal with a dog, unless his hunting is

(a) registered for the purpose of pest control, or

(b) exempt.''

If the amendment is approved, we will delete the words

''registered for the purpose of pest control''.

Everything else follows from that. The fact that an offence is committed if hunting takes place, unless it is exempt, remains the case. The possibility that applications could be made to a registrar, or appeals made to a tribunal will be deleted from the Bill. Clause 2 concerns registered hunting. That is no longer relevant following the decision of the House on Monday. I trust that we shall agree that the clause will not become part of the Bill.

Clause 3 deals with exempt hunting. It says that

''Hunting is exempt if it is within a class specified in Schedule 1.''

In many ways, that says it all because that clause will stand as originally intended. We have a long list of amendments to do something simple—removing the remaining architecture of the registrar and tribunal from the Bill in order to make it the simple Bill for which the House of Commons voted by a large majority on Monday.

Mr Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat)

I will fully understand and draw my own conclusion if the Minister does not reply to this question: does he think that the change is fair bearing in mind all the points that he has made on the record?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

The hon. Gentleman will understand that I believe that the Bill that I brought before the House on Monday would have been the most effective and the most simple to enforce. However, it is not difficult to understand the choice that the House of Commons made, and it is not difficult to make clear law, which the amendments will achieve. I am not sure what point the hon. Gentleman is trying to make. We have debated what should or should not be allowed and what should or should not be illegal on many occasions, including all the sittings of this Committee. A mechanism was proposed for foxhunting and mink hunting—it would have applied to a wider range of activities—but it was not given the support of the House on Monday and consequences flow from that.

Mr Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)

In a way, this question is subsequent to the previous intervention: can the Minister remind me of the stage at which the Secretary of State must signify that the Bill is in accordance with the European convention on human rights? She certified the original Bill, but this Bill has no such certification—I will keep talking for a little while to allow the Minister to obtain advice from his officials. This betwixt-and-between Bill is a mixture of two separate Bills. Why is there no certification that this Bill accords with the European

convention on human rights? At what stage will the Secretary of State provide such certification? Will it be in good time for Report, which I think is Wednesday next week?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

First, I am certain about the legal position. The Bill, as amended by the House of Commons on Monday and amended by us in Committee, is consistent with the human rights requirement. On the technical question of when the Bill must be certified, it must be certified before its Second Reading in the Lords. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Government must certify the amended Bill. When a Bill is introduced, the Government must state their position on it as drafted. If the House of Commons amends a Bill, which it does on many occasions, the statement must be made as the Bill reaches its Second Reading in the House of Lords. I assure the hon. Gentleman that that normal requirement will be fully complied with.

Mr Edward Garnier (Harborough, Conservative)

I appreciate that the Minister has a presentational difficulty because he has spent the last six months arguing an entirely different case. Were he still a magistrate and an advocate appeared in front of him having argued one case for the first half of proceedings and another case for the second half, he would think that it were strange. Would it not have been procedurally simpler for him to throw away the current Bill and bring back another? I am not suggesting that he should present a new Bill but, by amendment, he could produce a filleted Bill containing all the bits of the legislation that the House wants to get through, in which case we could have a more logical, Second Reading-type debate.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

I enter into the spirit of that intervention by saying to the hon. and learned Gentleman that when I was sitting as a magistrate advocates would frequently come before me and argue one case before arguing another after, for example, a finding of guilt. Secondly, his suggestion would be virtually the same as advising such an advocate to throw away their first client and return with a second. An advocate in court deals with what he has, and I am dealing with what I have. I have been open with the Committee that I would have preferred the Bill as I drafted it, leaving in place the architecture that we are about to take out. It would have made good law. [Interruption.] Opposition Members seem to want to ask questions but not to listen to the answers. On the other hand, a Bill that contains a ban on hunting, particularly the proposed ban on foxhunting, with the exceptions in schedule 1 is a simple and straightforward piece of law. Therefore, I do not understand the Opposition's problem.

Mr Hugo Swire (East Devon, Conservative)

The Minister maintains that it came as a surprise to him that he had to shelve something that he had been working on for two years and to allow what is, effectively, a private Member's Bill to replace it. There was an interesting time during the deliberations on Monday when he withdrew all his civil servants then came back to announce that he had decided to abandon what until that stage had been a Government proposal.

I know that the Minister has had meetings in the past few weeks and months with the hon. Member for West Ham. Can he tell the Committee at what point he realised that he would not get his Bill through and agreed to withdraw it?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

Yes. I made that decision after Mr. Speaker's ruling during Monday's debate on the time scale and after certain of my hon. Friends who had supported what I was seeking to do said that they felt that in view of what they had heard on Monday they could no longer support me in the Lobby.

The hon. Gentleman says that I have had conversations with my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham. I have indeed, but I have had conversations with many people. The Conservative spokesman is fond of referring to the fact that I met representatives of the RSPCA. I also met people from the Middle Way Group and the Countryside Alliance. Throughout the process, I met many people and continued to listen to all the views, but that did not involve agreeing with everything that everyone said. One cannot do that on divisive issues such as this, but I have sought to listen. In Committee, I have even had to listen to the hon. Member for North Wiltshire. That was not one of the most illuminating parts of the process.

Mr Hywel Williams (Caernarfon, Plaid Cymru)

The Minister said that the Bill would be simple if we accepted the amendments. Would it also be enforceable?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

Yes, it would be enforceable, but the question is whether it would be simpler or more complicated to enforce. We go from a simple, straightforward system of registration before the event, which the architecture of the unamended Bill would have provided, to an equally simple and straightforward system whereby the police and the courts deal with legislation in the normal way. The Bill is not complicated, but one could discuss, as we did for many weeks and months, which system would be simpler in the application.

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

I want to clarify whether those who voted against the Minister's advice during the debate in the Chamber—it was honourable for the Minister to vote as he did—were seeking to ban hunting entirely. That was the view, but he has decided not to table an amendment to the long title of the Bill, which says, ''Make provision about hunting'', no doubt on the basis that a schedule seems to indicate that hunting would still be allowed in some very narrow circumstances. Is the Minister telling his supporters that hunting is not banned entirely, in which case he can stand by the long title of the Bill, or is he telling them that it is banned entirely, in which case he surely would have to table an amendment to the long title?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, in his contribution in the Chamber, acknowledged that there is no such thing as a simple ban because there are exceptions. That is true of previous Bills, such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester, and the options Bill that was the last one to come before the House. Indeed, the

Middle Way Group's option would have been legislation to ban some activities and allow others. What we now have has been known colloquially as a complete ban—I suspect in some ways to distinguish it from the Middle Way Group option. I think that it is an unfortunate form of words, which has been misleading for many people, but we understand the shorthand.

The right hon. Gentleman's analysis of the Bill's title is absolutely correct. We have a ban, with limited exceptions for pest control provided in schedule 1, just as we would have seen distinguishing decisions made by the tribunal and registrar had they been put in place—but they will not be. The long title of the Bill seems correct as it stands.

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

I understand that, but does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the long title would be more accurate if it said that other activities as well as hare coursing were prohibited? It would have been more correct to have a long title that made specific the fact that the hunting of foxes and deer, as well as hare coursing, even using the word colloquially, are prohibited. It would be better to put that in, simply for the understanding of the public as a whole. That is important, especially bearing in mind the criticism that this might not be enforceable.

Mr Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West, Labour)

On a point of order, Mrs. Roe. May I suggest that any debate along these lines should be held when we debate clause 56, which is the short title of the Bill?

Mrs Marion Roe (Broxbourne, Conservative)

I think that hon. Members know that if this had been out of order, I should not have allowed it.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

I imply from the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, that that would mean specifying in the title—we should then have to be consistent—that the Bill deals only with particular sorts of hunting. The Bill deals with all hunting. There may be hunting that does not happen at the moment, such as the hunting of wild boar or of animals that have not yet been introduced into this country. If we do what he suggests and insert one or two specifics into the long title and the Bill, we would leave those activities theoretically outside the scope of the Bill. The Bill deals with all aspects of hunting. Hare coursing is dealt with separately because, legally, it is separate from hunting. The purpose of hare coursing is to compare the speed of the two animals, a definition given quite clearly—

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

Let me finish the point, then I shall happily give way. Hare coursing for that purpose is dealt with in the Bill as well as hunting, where the purpose is to catch the animal. I know that the word ''coursing'' is sometimes used colloquially in a different way—a complication that came up earlier—but that is the definition of hare coursing that is made clear in the Bill, which is why the long title must refer to hunting and hare coursing.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

In justifying the long title, the Minister refers to other forms of hunting that may occur in the future, such as the hunting of wild boar and other

mammals about which we do not yet know. Would he care to tell the Committee which part of the Bill would allow the use of dogs for hunting animals about which we do not yet know?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

I am happy to point out that the Bill does not do that. The whole point—[Interruption.] No, the hon. Gentleman does not seem to understand. He has shot himself in the foot by explaining precisely the point that I was making. The Bill introduces a ban on hunting with exceptions, which are set out in schedule 1. Schedule 1 exceptions do not include the unanticipated, but hunting of the unanticipated is within the scope of the Bill—it is not allowed. That is a very simple consequence.

Mr Hugo Swire (East Devon, Conservative)

I seek clarification on the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) quite properly raised. Would not the Minister consider referring to hunting with dogs to cover all those activities? There could be some confusion, as many people now adopt the Americanism of hunting, which takes into account shooting, too. To avoid that, perhaps the Minister should refer to hunting as ''hunting with dogs'' throughout Committee.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the long title of the Bill, he will see that it refers to dogs. It would lengthen my speech, which I am trying to keep short, if I did as he suggested. The Bill makes it clear that it is about

''hunting wild mammals with dogs;''

That is the phrase used. That is what I am talking about when I refer to hunting in Committee. I trust that, with that explanation, I can continue to use the term.

I should just correct one thing—I said that the exceptions would not cover wild mammals that are not identified in the Bill. They do not cover them explicitly, but the exception in relation to stalking and flushing out applies to all wild mammals, so that would include wild boar or whatever. I thought it only fair to offer that clarification to the Committee.

Mr Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)

Will the Minister give way?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

Perhaps I had better give way just once more, but then I shall continue to clarify issues, so that hon. Members can contribute.

Mr Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)

Now that we are moving on to the amendments that delete references to registered hunting, it must be admitted that the changes alter the nature of the Bill, which now completely drops any pretence of referring to the evidence taken in Portcullis house last summer, and ignores the consultation process that the Minister painstakingly went through, even if he paid little heed to what was said. What was the cost to the taxpayer of that huge artificial process? How much has been totally wasted as a result of that massive red herring, which we all knew was a ruse from the very start? We know that it cost the International Fund for Animal Welfare £1 million to buy the Bill, but what was the cost to the taxpayer?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

The hon. Gentleman always drags the level of debate down in Committee. I would have thought it fairly unwise for any hon. Member to suggest that it is a waste of time to look at evidence, listen to people with a variety of opinions, get people with very different views on a contentious matter together to listen to each other and discuss the subject, and seek resolution on an issue that has been so divisive in this House for many years. No, none of that effort was wasted.

The Chamber of the House of Commons, with its Members, who are elected to represent every constituency in the country, voted at the end of a long process of debate and decided that new clause 11 was the direction that it wished to take. I respect the democratic decision of the House, and that is why I am amending the Bill to remove those references that have ceased to be relevant or practical as a result of the vote in the House on Monday. I advise Opposition Members to show a little more respect for the decision of the House.

Mr Hugo Swire (East Devon, Conservative)

Can the Minister identify three points that came out of the Portcullis house hearings, the Burns report, and the lobbying of the pro-hunting group—or animal welfare group, for that matter—on which he has changed his mind since he presented his Bill? Were any of those considerations taken into account in the new Bill? If not, would not it be better for the Minister to resign, as he clearly does not believe in the Bill?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

That is nonsense. I had an open mind on deer hunting, for instance, particularly because it was clear that it aroused strong passions among the communities in Exmoor. I looked at the evidence and deliberately spent time listening to what people had to say, and I became convinced not only of the depth of passion on the issue and of the views of some within the communities—others strongly opposed the activity—but that there was no evidence that could justify an exception for deer hunting. That is an example of a subject on which I changed my mind.

I also referred to hare hunting. Originally, I thought that it would be possible to draw a line between hare coursing and whore—I mean, hare—hunting—[Interruption.] I do not understand what hon. Members find so amusing. I became convinced, partly by the representations of the hon. Member for North Wiltshire, that to draw such a simple line is not as easy as I had thought. I therefore accepted amendments in Committee. There have been many occasions on which, after examining the evidence, I have seen a different picture to that which I saw at the start.

The amendments made by the House on Monday evening have removed all the main types of hunting from the ambit of registration. As the situation now stands, registration is still possible, but only for the hunting of quarry for which there is no significant hunting with dogs at the moment. The number of applications that go to the registrar will be minimal or none at all. In those circumstances, we could not justify the substantial cost to public funds that the establishment of the registrar's office and the hunting tribunal would entail.

This group of amendments therefore removes all references to the registrar and tribunal from the Bill. The whole of part 2 and schedule 2 needs to be deleted. Similarly, all the provisions in parts 1, 3 and 4 and schedule 3 that relate to registration will be deleted. That includes clauses 6 and 7 and the other clauses that prevent registration of particular activities. Such clauses are no longer needed because they express bans on specific types of hunting, such as fox and deer hunting, as exceptions to the registration system, which has now been deleted. All those types of hunting will now be banned by clause 1, apart from the exemptions in schedule 1.

It may help the Committee if I mention two details of this group. I propose to replace clause 52, which deals with order-making powers, with new clause 1. That is simply a clearer way of introducing changes to clause 52 that are necessary as a consequence to the removal of the registration and tribunal system. Incidentally, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West on the way he analysed what was necessary for the Bill. I think that he was pleased to have identified all but one aspect, which was identified by our advisers. That shows both what a Member of the House can do, and the need for professional advice to ensure that nothing is overlooked.

Mr Andrew George (St Ives, Liberal Democrat)

To come back to a point that was raised by the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams), the Minister has no doubt had the opportunity to reflect deeply on enforcement. When we debated these issues on Monday, he argued that one of the difficulties of supporting new clause 11 as it was, was that the registration approach was more easily enforceable. Having had the opportunity to reflect, does he feel that an amended Bill in the form that is now proposed is liable to be as easily enforceable, as straightforward and as watertight as he anticipated for the previous Bill when it included registration?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

Clearly, I believe that the Bill that I introduced earlier would have been simpler to enforce. The whole point is that law does not always prevent what it forbids. However, as a result of the amendments made by the House, it is clear what the Bill will forbid.

There are some considerable improvements to the Bill. For instance, illegal hare coursing as it exists at the moment is a pernicious activity that often causes a great deal of distress for many people in rural communities. It is a matter on which Members from both sides of the House have corresponded with me frequently. The Bill, as amended, is still powerful in that regard, as it makes clear that the police are able to prosecute for illegal hare coursing, rather than having to provide evidence of people trespassing. Aspects of the Bill, as amended, will therefore be simple and straightforward to enforce. The police will have level 5 fines and powers of confiscation of animals and equipment, which will make a significant and beneficial difference to the enforcement of the law.

We will therefore be in a better position with the Bill than without it, although I was arguing that we could have been in an even better situation if my recommendations had been pursued.

Mr Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat)

One of the reasons why the Middle Way Group proposed an independent hunting authority and inspectors was enforceability. We felt that that would take the burden off the police and that the idea that the police would put resources into enforcing a ban was unfeasible. If the amendments and new clauses are incorporated into the Bill, how does the Minister envisage practical enforcement in an area such mid-Wales, where there are an average of 10 people per square mile?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

First, I think that the hon. Gentleman would accept that that is not a matter for me. It is a policing matter and therefore a matter for the Home Secretary when deciding the priority of the enforcement of various pieces of legislation. Secondly, in many cases enforcement will not be as difficult as all that. When people collectively engage in an activity that is clearly hunting, matters will be fairly straightforward. The normal prosecution system would apply in that sort of case. Thirdly, people who support hunting repeatedly tell us that they are law-abiding, so I am sure that they will comply with the law. I do not envisage the problem being as serious as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Mr Michael Foster (Worcester, Labour)

Has my right hon. Friend the Minister estimated the cost of policing activities such as Boxing day hunts, at which there is typically a stand-off between pro and anti-hunt supporters? Police resources are required to keep those people apart.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

My hon. Friend makes an entirely fair point. I point him to an article in The Times, which I read just before coming into Committee and which gives an expert view of such matters. He is right to say that there are consequences of changes in the law and changes of view in relation to some issues. People obeying the law may ease some of the pressures on police. However, we are getting into areas of speculation and on to matters that are outside the ambit of my ministerial responsibilities and the issues that we are discussing. The Committee is discussing what it is necessary to do to tidy up the Bill as a consequence of the decisions of the House.

Hon. Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex, Conservative)

I am now an old man, but when I started hunting 52 years ago, and certainly for the first 30 years that I hunted, no one ever saw policemen at hunts because there was never any need for them. Hunting was a law-abiding sport carried on by decent, honourable people. It was only after the appearance of rabid antis and their disgraceful behaviour that the police had to intercede to keep law and order.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

The hon. Gentleman's view of those who think differently from himself illustrates why the issue is such a problem. If there is sometimes prejudice on one side, I certainly heard a little prejudice creeping into the hon. Gentleman's remarks. I suggest to members of the Committee that that does not help. The issue still needs to be dealt with coolly. People should be encouraged to obey the law. I trust that

Opposition Members will not inflame the situation or make the job of the police who have to enforce the law—[Hon. Members: ''It is unenforceable.'']—more difficult by making spurious comments such as the one we just heard.

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

I hope to recapture the seriousness that the Minister wants. My chief constable has made it clear that there are problems of enforcement. What we are doing today relates to that. The Minister is right to say that the matter does not come under his remit, but it does come under the remit of the Government. The chief constable said that the matter was not high on the Home Office's list of priorities. The Committee needs to know whether the priorities of the Home Office will change and whether there will be additional funds if necessary. Has the Minister considered the fact that if hunting is totally abolished, many of those who are extremists on such issues will turn their attention to other sports, which will then require police intervention?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

I point the right hon. Gentleman to the article in The Times this morning, which suggests that if the final legislation is good, the police will not need to carry out too much enforcement. The Bill must be in good order for people to know what they can and cannot do, and for the courts to know what people should and should not be doing. That is the issue that we are dealing with today, not the consequences of what will happen when the Bill becomes law.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

I am conscious of the fact that I have given way on many occasions. In fact, I am only about two paragraphs into what I intended to say on this simple matter. It would be sensible for me to conclude by saying that the net effect of all the amendments will be that, as before, the Bill will make hunting any wild mammal with dogs an offence unless it is exempted. Special exemption for registered hunting is removed as a necessary consequence of the House's vote, as are the issues that are consequential or related to that. The Bill will be much simpler as a consequence. I suggest to the Committee that despite all the interventions, or as a result of my responses, it should understand that what we are seeking to do through the amendments is very simple.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

It took many years of thought, consultation and discussion, and the process of two Bills through two Houses—one through one House, and the second through both—Lord Burns's report, produced at enormous cost, time and difficulty, the Minister's enormous quantity of consultation, to which I pay tribute, the three days in Portcullis house and our many days in Committee to produce what was by our standards an extremely badly flawed and unworkable Bill that none the less could have become workable with suitable amendments. By contrast to the many years of discussion taken to produce that Bill, we now have a matter of 35 minutes to discuss the outright ban that the Minister proposes, and its legislative consequences.

By any standards that is a disgrace, and when the Minister says that Alastair McWhirter, the chief

constable of Suffolk, needs an easily enforceable Bill, which must be clear, straightforward and well drafted, I would suggest that we do not have a reasonable opportunity to produce that.

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

My hon. Friend should not allow the moment to pass without pointing out that by changing the Bill in such a way, we now have to raise some of the arguments that we did not have to previously. For example, why is it morally right to hunt rats and morally wrong to hunt hares or foxes? That is a real issue. It was not when there were exceptions, but it is now a fundamental moral issue that is being avoided by the Government, which means that we cannot deal with a serious concern.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely strong point. There are a great many others that we could easily make if we had time to discuss the changes that the Government propose to the Bill. Given that we now have half an hour to discuss the ending of something that has gone on in the countryside of England for the past 1,000 years, I do not intend to delay the Committee unnecessarily on the principles that lie behind the disgracefulness of what the Government are doing. We have discussed before the usefulness of hunting foxes and mink. Those things will be swept away and I am keen to give my hon. Friends a moment or two during the remaining half hour to make some powerful points on those issues.

I intend to focus on one important legislative consequence of what the Government propose. I shall not delay the Committee on the substantive matters of why I believe it is wrong to abolish hunting. My point is highlighted by two new clauses. My amendment to new clause 2 proposes that the Bill should become effective not within three months of Royal Assent, which is proposed in the Bill as drafted, but within one year. I am against the proposal of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Brown), whose amendment would make the Bill effective within one month.

Leaving aside the substance of the Bill, which my hon. Friends want to examine if we have time, I shall deal with one issue on which I hope to achieve a degree of consensus across the Committee. It is not controversial but it is of grave importance to the people whom it will affect. I suspect that it is a matter of compassion and of putting in place a reasonable Bill that is enforceable and workable.

Unless I am mistaken, the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Worcester, who will correct me if I am wrong, and the options Bill both allowed 12 months to bring in an outright ban on hunting. The reason why is not hard to see for anyone who knows anything about hunting: leaving aside stag hounds and other dogs used for hunting, there are 26,000 foxhounds in the United Kingdom. We should not be squeamish about admitting that those 26,000 dogs would be killed in the event of a ban.

The Minister for the Environment (Mr. Elliot Morley) indicated dissent.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

The Minister seems to think that that is acceptable. There is blood on the Government's hands.

Mr Elliot Morley (Minister of State (Environment and Agri-Environment), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Scunthorpe, Labour)

That is a bogus point. Such dogs are prematurely killed before they reach their full natural lifespan. Can the hon. Gentleman show us a home for retired foxhounds?

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

The Minister is right that working dogs of all kinds, including farm dogs, police dogs and Army dogs, are put to sleep at the end of their working lives. He suggests that hounds of all ages, from the newly born through to the aged, will be destroyed as a result of the Bill. [Interruption.] The talk of re-homing is absurd. A hound is a pack animal.

Mrs Marion Roe (Broxbourne, Conservative)

Order. I cannot hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying because of the constant barracking across the Room. I ask hon. Members to allow him to be heard.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

The grave point that I was making, Mrs. Roe, is that the futures of 26,000 foxhounds and doubtless tens of thousands of other hunting dogs will be put into doubt. Those who say that those dogs can somehow be, in the famous expression of the RSPCA, re-homed are, of course, incorrect. There is no way that a pack animal such as a hound can be re-homed. If the Minister is keen on that, I will make certain that half-a-dozen hounds are delivered to his house to allow him to consider how they can be re-homed. Re-homing a hound would be more cruel than putting it out of its misery in a humane way.

The matter does not only concern hounds—a large number of horses are kept in this country purely for hunting. They would have to be put down or sold off, and the horse market would collapse. There would also be enormous consequences for the 15,000 people who are employed full or part-time in hunting. There would be huge consequences for 1 million people in Britain today who take a keen interest and follow hounds one way or another. Property and vehicles would also need to be disposed of. The practical consequences of what is, by anybody's standards, an extreme piece of legislation would be profound.

Without entering into the more controversial areas, I appeal to the compassion of the Committee that if the Bill is to become law and we are to ban hunting of all kinds as it proposes, surely it would be reasonable to allow 12 months for it to become effective. Requiring it to be rushed through in three months—or, even worse, in one month as the hon. Member for Dumfries suggested—would be unfair.

Mr Michael Foster (Worcester, Labour)

Given what the hon. Gentleman has said about the period of notice required for people to adjust their lives and the impact upon horses and dogs, would he think it a wise move to suggest to those people who may be affected that, given the Government's commitment to conclude the matter, they should start examining the possibilities, which would allow them a 12-month period to make their plans.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

The hon. Gentleman makes a bizarre suggestion that people who are entirely opposed to a proposed piece of legislation and who are committed

to doing everything that they can to ensure that a disgraceful little Bill does not become law—I assure him that there are many millions of people in the countryside who feel that way about the Bill—should throw down their arms and say, ''Fine, the principle has been agreed. We will now start laying people off, killing hounds and selling buildings.'' It is not only ridiculous but disgraceful to suggest that the innocent citizens of Britain should anticipate a law that may or may not be passed in this place and take action in their personal lives to accommodate it. That ludicrous proposal deserves no further attention.

When Her Majesty gives Royal Assent to the Bill, some fundamental changes will have to occur in the countryside. Leaving aside the principle behind this disgraceful Bill—I do not intend to discuss that controversial matter—surely it would be right for this great Parliament to have some compassion for the people who will be affected when it becomes law and, rather than rush it through in three months or one, allow 12 months before it becomes effective. I commend my amendment to the Committee and hope that all hon. Members will support it.

I have rarely seen a more complex and extensive group of amendments and new clauses, but we have only 25 minutes to discuss them. We disagree with most of them and shall seek votes on them. I will not deal with all of them but simply remind the Minister of what he said. I quoted him earlier this morning, but it seems that he should have the final word on the simplicity question. In his letter, the Minister stated:

''In effect, a 'complete ban' amendment would destroy the architecture of the Bill, undermine the strong, simple framework of enforcement that is set out in the Bill and be perceived as pursuing prejudice rather than targeting cruelty which is totally banned by the Bill as it stands.''

I appeal to all members of the Committee to throw aside their prejudice. If the ban is to become law, let us at least give the people of the countryside a decent amount of time to prepare for it.

Mr Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat)

As this string of amendments is core to undermining the architecture of the Bill, which the Minister has for some considerable time told us would be appropriate in trying to achieve a reasonable settlement, I wish to make a few macro rather than detailed points, because the Minister has already described the amendments in considerable detail.

First, it is clear that the Minister's hands are tied behind his back by the vote on Monday. He cannot be blamed for that, because he did his best to prevent it. In that context, we still have unanswered questions, one of which concerns people in upland areas such as in my mid-Wales constituency. At one point or another, all sides have accepted that there are benefits in using dogs for pest control in such areas. Will the Minister ensure that, if this string of amendments is accepted, exemptions will be provided for people meaningfully to carry on their activities, which, I stress are primarily pest control in my neck of the woods, without falling foul of the law?

To put it another way, can the Minister give some assurance that he is serious about offering an exemption to hill packs, for example, which do not even use horses? They are regularly called out to deal

with rogue foxes. For decades, if not centuries, they have regarded hunting with dogs as the right way to approach the problem. That question is, perhaps, slightly rhetorical. I see very little in forthcoming amendments that would mitigate the very damaging effects for those people of this string of amendments. However, I am an optimist, and I hope that the Minister can clarify the matter in his summation on these amendments.

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

The simple answer is that those who wish to undertake activities with dogs under the amended Bill must look at schedule 1, which details what can and cannot be done and what does and does not qualify as exempt hunting.

Mr Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat)

I am hoping that the Minister will intervene again. For the record, will he confirm whether the foot packs of mid-Wales—Lord Burns clearly acknowledged that such packs are probably the most effective method of fox control there and in the fells in the north of England—will be banned?

Mr Alun Michael (Minister of State (Rural Affairs), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour/Co-operative)

The hon. Gentleman is over-egging the pudding in terms of what Lord Burns said. The danger of people quoting selectively from Lord Burns has been with us since the beginning. The simple fact is that many of the activities undertaken by hill packs and others would contravene some of the provisions in schedule 1. They would have to look at what schedule 1 allows and comply with its requirements.

Mr Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat)

I am not really surprised because it is clear what the Minister is saying. Even the hon. Member for Worcester has sometimes shown a degree of sympathy for the pest control activities of the foot packs of mid-Wales, but it seems that they will be banned. I am sure that David Jones and many other people who have acted in good faith in giving information to the Minister and various committees will draw their own conclusions about the futility of what they have done.

The Minister is probably feeling frustrated because the architecture that he painstakingly sought to construct, following quite extensive consultation with the Middle Way Group and other organisations that spoke for and against hunting, has been decisively dismantled. Does the Minister have any intention of considering the new research which my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire mentioned? Can he give an assurance that if the claims that I made earlier and elsewhere turn out to be correct, he will modify the legislation as it continues its proceedings here and in another place?

I believe that there is absolutely conclusive proof that if the ban goes through suffering in the countryside will increase. It might be thought that I am trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted, but if the claimed intention of all Members of the House continues to be animal welfare, surely it is nothing short of a moral responsibility for us to be willing, even at this 11th hour, to modify legislation if it can be shown that animal welfare will suffer rather than benefit from implementation of a complete ban?

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

One would like to go through the suggested changes one by one because they are all very important, but the only way in which we can discuss them in the time available is more generally. I am sorry that that should be so.

The greatest constitutional damage often takes place in circumstances that many feel are not important. These changes are important for a fundamental constitutional reason. The House of Commons introduced a Bill—it is not a Bill that I wanted—which the Minister sought to present, despite the temperature rising from time to time, as being intended to be a way through for all to support. I am not undermining or attacking his integrity, but at every point a compromise became less of a compromise until it became not a compromise at all. We are now seeking to put into operation a Bill that he specifically refused to present to the House of Commons. The amendments overturn the Bill which was presented and they do so, not piecemeal, but utterly.

The difficulty with that, and the reason why I oppose so many of the amendments, is that I believe that the amendments go much further than a Standing Committee has historically been asked to go. Standing Committees exist to revise legislation as it is proposed, discuss it in detail and ensure that the law that emerges is better, but not different. In all my knowledge, having been in the House for 30 years, the basics of proposed legislation have always amounted to the same law with which we started, whichever party introduced it.

This is a unique opportunity for us to discuss a new Bill under a wholly new process.

Mr Tony Banks (West Ham, Labour)

The right hon. Gentleman will perhaps recall from earlier sittings that I and other hon. Members said that a decision about a total ban should be made in Committee. However, we needed to test the wider opinion on the Floor of the House.

New clause 11 could have been moved in Committee and would undoubtedly have been carried. We would then have heard from the Opposition that the matter was so significant that it ought to be discussed on Report. We said that we were going to do that. The right hon. Gentleman and I might disagree about that, but he knows that I have always approach the matter honestly. I said that in Committee. Therefore, for him to use such arguments is slightly disingenuous.

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. However, that is not my point. I do not say that the Bill should have been changed in Committee. When such a change is made properly in the House of Commons, the Bill is thereafter fundamentally different, not just amended. I do not for one moment impugn the honesty of the hon. Member for West Ham. He and I fought hard over the Bill; sometimes we fought on the same side for things about which we cared passionately. There is no question about that.

The imputation must be made by those who need to make it. I believe that we are discussing today a new

Bill that the Government did not introduce; it is an alternative Bill, a Bill that originally they argued would be unworkable and less enforceable. The amendments are designed not to produce an amended Bill, but the Bill that the Government specifically set aside. This is a serious issue. I do not believe that there is an outside commentator, who is not committed to either side, who would not agree with that. Nor do I believe that there is a parliamentary expert who would not suggest that this is, at the least, a remarkable occasion. That is all I suggest.

What does that mean in respect of the amendments? We should allow people outside to understand that such a use of Parliament is unique. This has not happened before and there is a danger that if it happens once, it can happen again. A precedent will be set, which is why the amendments are so serious. When they are considered individually, each amendment may not seem important. Indeed, as we on the Opposition Benches have argued, for many people in the country the whole issue is unimportant. However, the constitutional effects of putting before the House an entirely different Bill from the original, and believing that to be a proper procedure, is a very serious thing indeed.

Mr Hugo Swire (East Devon, Conservative)

What my right hon. Friend says is true. Does he agree that this debate is creating a profound sense of unease in the country—even among those who want to ban hunting and have no time for it—about how a majority is being exercised over the rest of Parliament?

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

I agree with my hon. Friend, but I must apply myself to these amendments, otherwise you will count me out of order, Mrs. Roe.

Committee members hold surgeries, and people often come to them and say, ''How on earth does the law mean that? Why have they said that? This happened recently; what did you say about it?'' I have a difficulty with the fact that we are not going to discuss the substance of the amendments—or discuss them at all—because we will not have the time to do so. My difficulty is that some of these amendments—and most of the Government amendments—raise particular points that we ought to discuss. As I represent a rural constituency, people will come to my surgery and ask why it was not recognised that a particular amendment makes a certain sort of impact, such as that which was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire. They are going to ask him and me those questions, and they are going to demand answers. My answer will have to be twofold: first, there was not enough time to do what needed to be done; secondly, that is now the regular mechanism that is used in Parliament. That is my first point on the amendments, and it is a serious one.

My second point on the amendments is that it is impossible for the Committee to apply itself to the detailed issues that people will raise. That will lead them to say that the process of Parliament upon which they depend is no longer properly followed. Therefore, if the first criticism of these amendments is that they

are a constitutional outrage, the second one is that they are a democratic outrage because they make it impossible for our constituents to feel that they have been properly represented.

The third point is that they are a moral outrage. In dealing with these amendments, we are unable to discuss in detail why they apply to foxes and not to rabbits. We cannot do that because of the way that things have been put together: the fundamental moral issue that we ought to be raising with regard to each of the amendments cannot be raised because of the nature of the procedure that has been presented.

Fourthly, this is an animal welfare outrage. The amendments would make it illegal to control animal populations in the most humane way. There is a majority in favour of the amendments so they will, no doubt, be agreed to. However, each one of them would mean that the most humane way of culling animals when they need to be culled has become illegal.

I have taken an active part in animal welfare. For example, I was the author of—and steered through—legislation about badgers, which was not supported by some Committee members. I also changed the rules on religious slaughter: I moved them as far as I could in a humane direction. Therefore, I think that the hon. Member for West Ham would agree that I do not speak in a general way on this: I have cared about these matters. It distresses me very much that I am a member of a Committee that, for the first time in my knowledge, will choose, with all the evidence in front of it, to pass amendments that make illegal the better way in terms of animal welfare.

I agree with some Labour members that there are occasions when hunting could be seen as a less good way. If the amendments enabled us to distinguish between those and the other occasions, I would support them. However, each of them would make it impossible to choose the approach most likely to result in improved animal welfare on all occasions when such matters are presented to us.

The amendments, tabled mainly by the Government, are constitutionally and democratically unacceptable. They are also unacceptable morally and certainly unacceptable in respect of animal welfare. I should have liked to have examined them in detail, but I shall finish my remarks by referring to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire about timing and animal welfare.

I am sorry that the Minister for the Environment is not in Committee. On several occasions, I have spoken publicly about his qualities. His history in defending conservation of the seas and his support for tough measures that have been extremely difficult politically are known to us all. I should not like anything that I have to say about him now to detract from what I consider he will be able to do as the Minister in charge of conservation. I regret the passing of his predecessor, who carried out the job enormously well, but the present Minister has been given a great opportunity and I know that he will take it.

The Minister for the Environment said to my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire that it would be the same to kill the hounds at the height of their lives as at the end of their working lives. I hope that, when the hon. Gentleman reads the report of our proceedings, he will question what his words meant. It was like saying to animal lovers who keep dogs, of which I am one, that it is the same to kill my two-year-old Staffordshire bull terrier as it would be to put him down when he is aged 14, blind and no longer able to act normally. If I said that to my children or my constituents, they would say that such a statement was not true.

Our problem is that animals that have for centuries been bred for particular purposes and that live together in a particular way will be destroyed. Of course, if the Bill were for some great purpose and was shown in the wider sense to support animal welfare, and really promoted the better management of the countryside, it might be possible to weigh such matters in the balance. The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire is crucial; his opposition to the amendments that would lead to a more immediate imposition of the Bill is equally important, given what they would mean.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire, Conservative)

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for his kind words. He may not realise that, because of the disgraceful guillotine motion under which we are operating today, the Committee will run on time and my amendment will not be considered. Hopefully, however, it will be discussed at later stages either in the House or in another place.

Mr John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal, Conservative)

My hon. Friend underlines the problem that we are facing in Committee. I am concerned about animal welfare. Small, ill or under-performing hounds—in the sense that they are the end of the litter, although not quite the runts of the litter—that need special care are looked after in the farm next to mine. I see them growing up and being cared for. I try not to be sentimental about such matters, but I cannot accept what is being proposed.

I have always been worried about such matters at every level. The Committee knows that I have a strong view about capital punishment. I always ask people who are in favour of capital punishment whether they would like to carry out the sentence themselves. We are discussing a similar question. If people are so much in favour of the destruction of the animals, would they do it themselves? I could not. What is more, my constituents could not do it, but they know who would have made them do it. We are not considering a proper series of amendments. There is no proper time to consider them and it is a disgrace that we should be asked to do so.

Mr Andrew George (St Ives, Liberal Democrat)

I want to support the Minister in what I thought was a good and workable compromise. The right hon. Gentleman has done a good and brave job in attempting to persuade the House of his argument, knowing full well the way in which the parliamentary arithmetic would go. However, we are being called on now to accept a collection of consequential amendments. I want a workable and enforceable Bill, and although I have some misgivings, I accept the Minister's assurance that he and his parliamentary draftsmen have done all that they can, following the decision on Monday evening, to ensure that that will happen.

We are all experiencing a sense of déjà vu as we go over many issues. I have not heard anything that I have not heard before. I understand the frustration that we all feel when we are numerically or arithmetically on the wrong side of a result in the House or in a debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire put well the fact that we won the arguments, but we lost the vote. We have all felt that sense of frustration. In this debate, as in many others, opinion is often wrapped up as fact and that often influences the way we reach our conclusion.

My primary worry about the Bill is enforceability. I raised the matter with the Minister in an intervention. He acknowledged that he had thought deeply about the enforceability of the compromise under the Bill in its previous form. I respect that. My hon. Friend rightly said that we must continue to monitor and review the impact of the Bill when it is enacted, from the point of view of animal welfare and cruelty. It should be monitored also from the point of view of enforceability. As with all legislation that goes through the House, we will have an opportunity to review. We shall continue to review the position. However, I shall conclude my remarks as there are only a few minutes left.

Mr Edward Garnier (Harborough, Conservative)

I am grateful to the hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) for bringing his remarks to a conclusion to allow me two minutes to address the Committee. Process is important and we are losing sight of our job. Nothing will ever make the hon. Member for West Ham and I agree about the rights or wrongs of hunting. That is a given, and we can forget about that. However, as Members of Parliament, we ought to agree that the process that we are now engaged in is obscene. It is not the right way to extend the criminal law, which should be based on consent. Consent of the majority in the House of Commons and the Lords makes law, but we must consider the consent of the public to the process by which laws are brought into effect. Those who are to be criminalised by this law will not find that happening today. A vast collection of amendments will never be discussed. We have a new Bill, which is completely different from the Bill introduced by the Minister in November or December or whenever the Bill was debated on Second Reading.

I do not want to get bogged down about whether the hon. Member for West Ham is right about this or that but, on this occasion, the process is flawed. We are doing Parliament and our constituents no good. They will feel that they have been cheated. I do not attack the Minister's integrity. I take a different view about what is right. If I had been him, I would not have had the nerve to present this Bill now. I would have given that job to someone else who had presented the original case. I do not think that one can, in honesty, present the case first one way and then other. It may well have been the Minister for the Environment—

Mr Tony Banks (West Ham, Labour)

That is what he is paid to do.

Mr Edward Garnier (Harborough, Conservative)

He is not elected to do that, though, is he? [Interruption.] The children hear the tumbrels and are getting excited, because they know that 11.25 am is feeding time. Let them eat cake, or whatever they are supposed to be eating.

My serious point is that the Government should be ashamed of themselves. We, as members of the Committee, should be ashamed of ourselves—

It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 19, Noes 9.