Mr Simon Burns (West Chelmsford, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 22, in

clause 21, page 8, line 34, at end add

'subject to the regulator only having the power to set fees at a level that recovers his annual running costs apportioned across the total number of NHS foundation trusts.'.

I shall be brief as this is a very straightforward amendment. It would add a proviso that the fee should be set at a level that restricts it to the recovery of the annual running costs across the board. I hope that the Minister will agree with the philosophy behind the amendment, even if he feels that it is unnecessary to put it in the Bill. There have been complaints over a number of years that levels of fees imposed—usually inspection fees—have increased significantly above the rate of inflation. Although no one would disagree that the cost of the work done should be recoverable, to set a fee above that level, which might be construed as having an element of profit in it, would be unwelcome and unnecessary. I hope that the Minister can at least give the Committee a commitment that he will expect the fee levels to be restricted to the costs of the work carried out, and not an opportunity for a future Chancellor of the Exchequer to use this as a system of generating additional funding.

Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon, Conservative)

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for West Chelmsford does not mind me asking a couple of questions in support of his argument. This is an interesting amendment to an interesting clause. I want to probe the Minister a little. Will the fees paid to the regulator replace any fees that hospitals currently pay to the centre? My concern throughout the Bill has been that rather than setting the hospital trusts free, we might be adding bureaucracy and costs to them.

Is it the case that the entire cost of running the regulator's office will come from the foundation trust? Perhaps it says so in the guide and I have missed it. Can the Minister confirm that that is the intention, or will there be additional money from the centre to run the office; top-up fees to pay for part of the services or something of that nature?

Will the Minister give a ballpark figure for the hospital trusts being set up next year? Some thought must have gone into the matter. What kind of annual fee are we talking about; £1,000 a year, £10,000 a year or £100,000 a year? I have no feel for the figures from the document in front of me. Has the Minister given

thought to the matter, have there been discussions and do the applicant trusts know the fee they are likely to pay?

Mr John Hutton (Minister of State, Department of Health; Barrow & Furness, Labour)

I am grateful to the hon. Member for West Chelmsford for tabling amendment No. 22. I will try to give him the assurances he seeks. It is not the case that the power to set fees could be used as a hidden form of taxation in the NHS. As he will know, the independent regulator has no power under the Bill to generate or distribute surplus funds to anyone. That means that as a matter of law the independent regulator will not be able to charge fees that exceed the total expenses of his office.

The hon. Member for South-West Devon asked a number of intriguing questions. He will not be at all surprised, because he has done a job like this himself, that I am not in a position to give him any detailed estimates about the fees the regulator might charge. That will depend at least in part on the number of NHS foundation trusts. As he knows, the Bill says that the fee must be reasonable. By law, that prevents the independent regulator from charging fees that exceed his expenses.

The hon. Gentleman asked me indirectly when we intend to move to a situation where fees are levied by the independent regulator. I am not sure that I can be specific about that point today. He will know that separate commencement orders can apply to different sections of the Bill. We will not commence the provisions in clause 21 until it is appropriate to do so. We have made it clear that the running costs of the independent regulator will be met by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the foreseeable future.

Mr Simon Burns (West Chelmsford, Conservative)

In the light of the Minister's assurance, which I warmly welcome, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.