Schedule 2 - Independent Regulator of NHS Foundation Trusts
Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill

Mr John Hutton (Minister of State, Department of Health; Barrow and Furness, Labour)

I have absolutely no idea where we finished before lunch. I am sure that we were having a useful discussion; I was on my feet, so that is axiomatic.

The hon. Member for Cheadle (Mrs. Calton) raised the important issue of how to deal with poaching or unfair competition between NHS organisations for staff. The hon. Lady clearly wished to insert a provision in the Bill, although she did not make clear whether this was a probing amendment, that would involve the independent regulator in making decisions on whether there had been a breach of the statutory duty of co-operation. He must do that anyway, as it is his job to ensure that all NHS foundation trusts comply both with the terms of their authorisation and the terms of the statutory provisions that relate to their function. Therefore, the hon. Lady's point is already encompassed in the Bill.

The discussion ranged further, Mr. Atkinson, as to whether it would be appropriate for the independent regulator to vary employment terms and conditions, or for him to impose additional restrictions on NHS foundation trusts when it came to the employment of staff. We do not want to go down either of those two latter roads, as that would not be an appropriate role for the regulator. I hope that Committee members take that view. Such matters are best dealt with by unions, staff and employers. I hope that I have been able to assure the hon. Lady that the valid point she raises is covered by the Bill, and that she will not press her amendment to a Division.

Ms Patsy Calton (Cheadle, Liberal Democrat)

I thank the Minister for his thoughtful response; I am reeling from the tributes. I am pleased that he recognises that there is a recruitment problem in the NHS, which could worsen

as we phase in foundation trust status for, as I understand it, all hospitals.

I have listened to the Minister's reassurances that ''Agenda for Change'' deals with the problem, and I would ask the Secretary of State to keep a watchful eye on that aspect of the two-tier system. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That this schedule, as amended, be the Second schedule to the Bill.

Mr Simon Burns (West Chelmsford, Conservative)

I do not intend to detain the Committee for long. First, as will have become apparent during our debate on the amendments proposed to schedule 2, my hon. Friends and I are still concerned—notwithstanding what the Minister has said to seek to reassure us—that the independence of the independent regulator is compromised by the arrangements, even if they are administrative arrangements over his appointment. I will check that in Hansard on Thursday morning, and study it further, with a view to possibly returning to the subject. My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) may wish to do that at a later stage in the proceedings.

Secondly, paragraphs 10 and 11 in the schedule are perfectly straightforward. They amend the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 and the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975, and those will now state that the regulator for foundation trusts is disqualified from being a Member of this House or of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The Under-Secretary said—I think it was during the debate on clause 1—that, at some point, the Government would table an amendment to make it a disqualify from this House someone on the board of governors of a foundation trust. Presumably that would be a straightforward amendment; however, looking through this morning's list of amendments, I see that it has not been forthcoming. Would it have been possible for the Government to have produced the amendment to include in the schedule because it deals with disqualification, or would that be inappropriate? Will the Government have to attach that amendment to another schedule or clause? When does the Minister expect that amendment to be tabled for our consideration?

Mr John Hutton (Minister of State, Department of Health; Barrow and Furness, Labour)

The current intention is to table that amendment as a consequential amendment to schedule 4. It would not be appropriate to insert such an amendment in schedule 2, which relates to the office of the independent regulator. The hon. Gentleman's point relates to non-executive directors.

Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.