Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I will deal with this quite briefly. [Interruption.] I hear some support for that from the hon. Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight). I am conscious that this is the last sitting of the Committee and I do not want to detain hon. Members terribly long. I have a little more to say about the next new clause, but again it should not take too long—to the pleasure, I am sure, of the hon. Member for South Dorset.

I mentioned earlier that one of the advantages of being a shadow Home Office Minister is that one is able to receive confidential briefings from people such as the head of the National Crime Squad and the head of the National Criminal Intelligence Service. Those briefings enable one to think quite carefully about some of the most serious types of violent crime and, particularly, about the importation of firearms. The Government have recognised the huge problem of the explosion of gun crime. The tragic deaths of two young women in a gang war—they were literally caught in the crossfire—led to the Home Secretary having what he called a gun summit. All kinds of promises were made about the crucial steps that the Government were taking.

The Bill is a useful opportunity. Clearly, the new clause is in order; otherwise, we would not have been allowed to table it and it would not have been selected for debate. It must fall under the long title of the Bill. We felt that there was no reason not to take the opportunity to add it to the Bill. It is a useful vehicle and reinforces the point that the Secretary of State should have that duty placed on him in relation to the import of firearms. I hope that the Minister will surprise us all on this last afternoon by standing up and saying that the Government entirely agree, and will accept the new clause. We wait to hear.

Ms Caroline Flint (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (reducing organised and international crime, anti drugs co-ordination and international and European issues), Home Office; Don Valley, Labour)

As the hon. Gentleman has outlined, all Committee members, and all our parties, take the issue of firearms seriously—as I think does the whole country. How they are used, even by people who have licences, and whether they are lawfully imported are important to us all. He will be fully aware that we already have some of the toughest gun controls in the world, because of the actions of this Government since they were elected in 1997. We have been working with the police to ensure good security of legally held weapons to prevent them being stolen, and we are looking at the need to establish stricter controls on deactivation standards.

We are working very closely with our EU partners and with the various United Nations bodies. We are heavily engaged in ensuring that Governments and law enforcement agencies work together as closely as

possible, within our varying systems, so that any gaps are not exploited by those who organise and profit from criminal businesses. It is essential to tackle those problems as far upstream as possible, which is why the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, the Department for International Development and other agencies are assisting Governments and law enforcement agencies in countries that are a source of the organised crime problems in this country.

The National Crime Squad and the National Criminal Intelligence Service play a key role in the intelligence-led approach to gun crime, in London as elsewhere. NCIS runs a national firearms-tracing service that provides intelligence on the source and use of guns used in crime. That will be complemented by a new, national, computerised forensic firearms intelligence database, set up with £1.4 million funding from the Home Office.

We have recently made changes to firearms legislation in the Criminal Justice and Anti-social Behaviour Bills. Some Members on this Committee who have been involved with those Bills will be aware of the firearms measures in them, which I shall briefly outline. The Criminal Justice Bill includes a provision to introduce a five-year minimum sentence for the illegal possession of prohibited weapons. The Anti-social Behaviour Bill will make it an offence to possess an air weapon or an imitation firearm in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. It includes measures to ban the sale, manufacture and import of firearms using self-contained air cartridge systems, such as Brocock, and to license those already held.

In short, the Government are wholly committed to tackling gun crime, and working internationally in support of that aim. That is why, despite its good intent, the new clause is unnecessary. It does not sit comfortably in the body of the Bill. We are committed, as is publicly known, to reviewing firearms legislation. The phraseology here might be more useful if there were to be new legislation. We all share concern about gun crime and the import of illegal weapons, and the Government are showing that they are very willing to tackle those issues head-on. The fact that we do not agree that this new clause should be added to the Bill in no way detracts from the good work that we have done to tackle problems in this field.

Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)

I am sure that there is a huge amount of good intention on the part of Ministers and officials in the Home Office and, of course, of police forces throughout the country. Sad to say, however, the fact remains that if one talks to senior officers in law enforcement, they say that one of the things that they are most worried about is the ever-increasing use of guns in all types of crime. In particular, one hears that some organised criminals coming into this country from such countries as Albania are much more inclined that way than the admittedly serious criminals whom we have had here in the past. It has been said to me that the difference with the Albanians is that they literally, in the words of the old west, shoot first and ask questions afterwards. They seem to have no hesitation at all. Senior officers have suggested to

me that Albanians are much more difficult serious, organised criminals to deal with than any others that the forces of law and order in this country have ever met. A further issue is the increased use of firearms by yardie criminals.

I have said that there is plenty of good intent on the part of Home Office Ministers and their officials, but we all know, to use the old phrase, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney & Shetland, Liberal Democrat)

A few short minutes ago—at least, according to the clock it was a few minutes ago; it seems a hell of a lot longer ago than that—the hon. Gentleman was telling the Committee that we have too many laws, and that too many of them are unnecessary. I wonder whether he would care to reflect on his words in relation to new clause 7. What does it really add?

Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)

The hon. Gentleman seeks to poke gentle fun by saying that I pointed out that we had too many laws. This law will be made anyway; we are talking about a Bill that will become an Act. The question is: what is in it? To answer the hon. Gentleman's question, our small new clause would give a clear duty to the Secretary of State.

As I have said, the Government have lots of good intent, but what they are doing is not effective enough, because the situation in relation to gun crime in this country is getting worse, not better. Although the Minister has been in office for less than a week, she cannot escape the fact that the situation has got a lot worse since the Government came to power. The duty is on the Government to do something about that, and I think that the new clause would help.

Ms Caroline Flint (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (reducing organised and international crime, anti drugs co-ordination and international and European issues), Home Office; Don Valley, Labour)

The idea is often put about that guns are flooding into the country, but my information is that that is not the case. Having consulted the police, Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and NCIS, I can say that there is no evidence to support that assertion. There is certainly no evidence of organised and large-scale smuggling; nor does there appear to be a single main source of the firearms held by criminals. Sources in recent years include theft from legitimate owners, the smuggling of individual weapons, conversion of deactivated or replica weapons, and trophies of war brought back by returning service personnel. It is important to make it clear that that is what evidence and research suggests; otherwise, we end up with sensational headlines that cause unnecessary fear and concern in communities.

Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)

I know why the Minister is concerned about sensational headlines—because they damage the Government's opinion poll rating. I am sure that the Minister was saying what is written in her brief. It was probably headed, ''If pressed, say this''. I seriously suggest that as soon as her new ministerial duties allow, she has a personal one-to-one briefing with the heads of NCS and NCIS, as I have done. In particular, she should ask both of them what they say about the ruthlessness of Albanian gangsters, who are taking over, for example, the vice trade in central London and other cities. When she has done that, I suspect that she will not be quite so ready to read out the briefings

that she is given. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.