Clause 39 - Offences
Crime (International Co-operation) Bill [Lords]
10:15 am
Mr Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath, Conservative)
The hon. Gentleman is right—he, I and others considered that Bill, including my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) and the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson), who enlivened the proceedings. He is right that we had similar discussions, but I did not agree with him then and I do not agree with him now. There must be a sense of balance. We are trying not to water down legislation, but to provide the sort of protection that is needed by relatively junior employees of banking institutions.
From the discussions that I have as deputy chairman of the all-party group on insurance and financial services, I know that there is great concern among those who lead the trade unions in the banking sector about such legislation. The cross-party officers of the all-party group recently held a working dinner with the leadership of all the unions in the sector, and all expressed concerns about the way in which legislation might affect relatively junior members of staff, if some sense of proportionality was not maintained. That is why I tabled the amendment.
The hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) and I both have legal qualifications. When studying criminal law, he will have been taught about the difference between someone who has a criminal mind—mens rea—and someone who has not. One of the basic principles underlying most criminal law is that if someone is merely careless or negligent, they are not committing a criminal offence. For the purposes of most criminal offences, there must be deliberation or recklessness, although there are some exceptions.
We are discussing the introduction of new criminal offences that can affect financial institutions and members of their staff, and our contention is that a financial institution should not be convicted of a new criminal offence, if the mistake that has been made is careless or negligent, although we can accept prosecution if the action was deliberate or reckless. The provision goes too far. I do not think that we are watering the clause down. I hope that the Minister will reflect carefully on the fact that we are trying to introduce into the legislation the basic principles that underlie most of our criminal law.