Clause 199 - Welsh Authority's function of providing S4C and S4C Digital
Communications Bill
8:55 am
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford, Conservative)
I beg to move amendment No. 283 in
clause 199, page 174, line 11, leave out from 'Authority' to end of line 14 and insert 'must use part of the signals carrying S4C to provide subtitling in relation to programmes included in the service
and may use part of those signals to provide other services which are ancillary to programmes included in S4C and which are directly related to their contents.'.
I hope that we can begin in the spirit in which we will continue this morning and dispatch this matter swiftly. The amendment deals with subtitling on S4C. Although the Royal National Institute for Deaf People has done a lot of work to promote subtitling and make it easier for deaf people to enjoy television programmes, the institute tells me that it is not necessary to press the amendment, so I wish to make it clear that I am willing to withdraw it.
The amendment, however, gives me an opportunity to put on record my tribute to S4C for its work. S4C exceeded its target for 2002 of 73 per cent. subtitling for Welsh language programmes—the actual outcome was 75 per cent. The target has been increased to 76 per cent. for this year and 80 per cent. by 2004. In addition, 10 hours of programmes a week are subtitled in simplified Welsh, specifically for those who want to learn the language. Even simplified Welsh may be a little ambitious for me if I ever find myself watching S4C on digital television, but it is nevertheless a beneficial addition to help with the take-up and understanding of the Welsh language.
S4C has worked with the RNID to ensure that all those with hearing difficulties in Wales are able to access Welsh language programmes. It is worth putting on record that S4C has done a great deal of work on the matter, which is why the amendment is unnecessary.
Mr Simon Thomas (Ceredigion, Plaid Cymru)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) for tabling the amendment because it allows the Committee to reflect on what S4C has achieved and its future objectives. As he said, S4C has its own target of 73 per cent. of subtitling on its programmes, a target that it has exceeded to date. This month the figure will be 76 per cent., and it has set a target of 80 per cent. by 2004. The broadcaster is to be congratulated on that.
We are discussing access to subtitling for deaf people in Wales. The Committee needs to reflect that most subtitling on S4C is from the Welsh language into the English language. There is also specialist subtitling from the Welsh as spoken on the screen to the simplified Welsh to which the hon. Gentleman referred. One of the difficulties faced by Welsh-speaking deaf people in Wales in the past is that they have not been able to receive the S4C programmes in their own language; Welsh-speaking deaf people in Wales have had subtitles in English and have had to access S4C through the medium of English, which undermines the reason for the existence of S4C.
As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, S4C has worked hard with the RNID to overcome the problem. Next year, the 889 service—the service he referred to on teletext—that takes viewers from the spoken Welsh on the screen to the simplified written Welsh will become more widely available. I regret to tell him that there will be less simplification and a more standard Welsh version of what is happening on the screen will be used. Deaf people will welcome the fact that they will
have greater access to S4C programmes in their own language.
Such matters have been raised by one of my constituents, the Reverend Mort, who is a member of the Wales Council for the Deaf, another active organisation in Wales. He has also said that we have a copyright problem in Wales: many programmes that he and a lot of people in Wales enjoy watching on S4C, such as broadcasts of Eisteddfodau or choral singing, have a copyright problem to do with putting the lyrics on screen as subtitles. Deaf people can watch a subtitled programme up to a certain point, but when the music kicks in there are no subtitles. Now is an opportunity for the Minister to explain how S4C may be assisted to overcome its difficulties with subtitling and subtitling costs.
We need to go back to where we were on Tuesday and consider the expansion of S4C's services, particularly in the digital age, and how it might be better funded to meet some of the challenges. I support the hon. Gentleman's praise for S4C. I note that improvements are already happening and more significant improvements are planned within the next year. I hope that S4C, the RNID and other deaf organisations in Wales will continue to work together to ensure the best possible access to both English and Welsh through the medium of subtitling into Welsh-language programmes.
It is not only deaf people who benefit from subtitling on S4C; for some reason, my daughter always watches programmes through subtitling—English or Welsh. It is a service that is available and it obviously enhances the enjoyment of S4C programmes for many people in Wales.
Dr Kim Howells (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Pontypridd, Labour)
Before I speak to the amendment, Mr. Gale, would it be in order for me to answer some of the issues that were raised on Thursday on the clause?
Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)
The hon. Gentleman puts me in a slight quandary because I was intending, exceptionally, to permit a stand part debate because an hon. Member has already said he wishes to speak on a stand part debate. I am fairly relaxed about the matter.
Michael Fabricant rose—
Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)
Please do not.
If the Minister will deal with the issues now, I am willing to call the hon. Gentleman as well. Perhaps we can deal with the matter in that way and without a stand part debate.
Dr Kim Howells (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Pontypridd, Labour)
I shall be brief.
On Thursday, we had a hybrid but useful debate that ranged across several clauses. I shall refer to a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), who is not present. Our approach has been that the obligations placed on the Welsh authority by the Bill should be broadly comparable to those placed on the BBC in part by the
Bill but mainly by the BBC agreement. We have departed from that approach only when the nature and functions of the Welsh authority made that necessary or desirable. One example in which we have done so is subtitling, which is the subject of amendment No. 283, to which I shall return.
On Thursday afternoon, the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) asked what the regulatory position of S4C would be in relation to Ofcom. As I explained on Tuesday, the authority, like the BBC, will remain self-regulating on matters such as impartiality and the fulfilment of its tier 3 remits. However, like the BBC, the authority will be subject to Ofcom regulation in respect of negative content requirements and industry-wide quotas and obligations.
The hon. Gentleman also asked whether clause 200 would enable the Welsh authority to launch new services in response to changes in technology. The new services that clause 200 will enable the authority to provide are not restricted to existing technology. As long as the authority provides public services of high quality for the dissemination of information, education or entertainment wholly or mainly to the members of the public in Wales, and provided that the Secretary of State has approved those services, clause 200 will permit the authority to provide them by any means that it thinks fit. There is one exception, which I shall mention.
Under clause 200, the Welsh authority may not provide radio services. If it wishes to offer such services, it will be able to provide them as licence services via an S4C company set up under clause 201. We have excluded some services from clause 200 because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, Welsh language public service is already well provided for by the BBC, and we do not think that it would be appropriate for the Welsh authority to divert funds from its existing public services to provide competing publicly funded radio services.
The hon. Gentleman asked about S4C funding several times. The Government recognise the financial pressures faced by the Welsh authority and the steps that it has taken to improve efficiency, and I pay tribute to the authority for that. We have given careful consideration to the authority's bid for additional funding in the recent spending review. However, because of the many competing bids that the Department receives, and the pressures on our budget, it was not possible to meet that bid. The Welsh authority's funding arrangements bring advantages as well as the perceived disadvantages. Of course, there will always be constraints on Government expenditure, but Government funding for S4C and the annual increases in relation to the retail prices index have largely protected the authority from the sharp downturn in advertising revenue that commercial broadcasters have recently experienced.
I am grateful for the helpful way in which the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford presented amendment No. 283. I recognise the force of his argument as well as the point made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion about the Welsh authority providing subtitling on S4C. However, the effect of the amendment, as the hon. Member for Maldon and East
Chelmsford hinted, would be to require all programmes included in the S4C service to be subtitled from the date on which clause 199 comes into force. That is in contrast to clause No. 293, which makes provision for interim targets to be met by other television services. We are working towards 90 per cent. for Channel 3 and Channel 4, and 80 per cent. for other services, by January 2010. Clause 293 also provides for specified programmes to be excluded from those targets. The amendment would therefore impose substantially tougher targets on S4C than on any other channel.
The Welsh authority already provides subtitling on a voluntary basis. When drafting the Bill, we took the view that it should continue to do so on its analogue television service. The authority faces special challenges in the provision of subtitling. As Michael Caine might say, ''Not a lot of people know that.'' The authority caters not only for hearing impaired Welsh speakers but for Welsh learners and for English-speaking viewers like me. The provision of subtitles in two languages creates additional burdens and requires the authority to make judgments that are not required of other broadcasters. The Government believe that the authority has shown itself able to balance the subtitling needs of different audiences and to do so well. We are not therefore persuaded that statutory subtitling targets are the best way forward for the S4C analogue service. I am glad to hear that the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford has decided not to press his amendment.
Mr Simon Thomas (Ceredigion, Plaid Cymru)
The Minister says, rightly, that S4C should continue with the voluntary way in which it deals with things at the moment. However, if there is a problem in future, will Ofcom have any role in either regulating or reporting on any perceived failure by S4C to subtitle its programmes adequately?
Dr Kim Howells (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Pontypridd, Labour)
I expect Ofcom to hold constant discussions with the Welsh authority on subtitling. Access is a central issue, as is strengthening the function of S4C in protecting and promoting the Welsh language. Subtitling will be an important element of that.
I forgot to answer the hon. Gentleman's question on copyright. As somebody who dealt with this issue at the Department of Trade and Industry, I know that it is an issue for the Patent Office. The question of copyright is difficult. In Wales, many authors depend on the revenue that they receive from copyrighted material. That material belongs to them and may be their only means of earning money. The issue is delicate and will have to be discussed with S4C and broadcasters in general.
Mr Chris Bryant (Rhondda, Labour)
Would not this matter be dealt with by the incorporation of the copyright directive?
Dr Kim Howells (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Pontypridd, Labour)
Partly—but the copyright directive is a large and blunt instrument. In cases such as that raised by the hon. Member for Ceredigion, programmes and subjects that have traditionally been the fare of a service such as S4C could run into difficulty because of
interpretation or implementation. We have to get things right. My hon. Friend is right to suggest that things are changing quickly on the copyright front and, more generally, on the intellectual property front.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his amendment.
Mr Michael Fabricant (Lichfield, Conservative)
I want to speak not so much on subtitling but more on the main part of the Bill. My point is a straightforward one on the provision of digital services.
In earlier debates, hon. Members have mentioned the problems of the topology of Wales and the means by which digital transmissions can be disseminated to viewers. People in valleys—especially valleys with south-facing hills—cannot receive satellite access. As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Bryant) has said on numerous occasions, cable services are not widespread in rural areas of Wales or the rest of the United Kingdom. One practical way in which a digital service can be provided in Wales is by the use of relay transmitters, which, at present, do not carry digital terrestrial broadcasting. The Minister will be aware that that is currently licensed by the Independent Television Commission to Freeview.
Clause 199 is concerned with the provision of S4C digital. So far, the entire discussion has been around programme content. Will the Welsh authority have the power to provide funding for digital terrestrial television transmitters and antennae to be added to the relay transmitters? What is the Government's view on the funding of such services by the Welsh authority, because without the provision of digital terrestrial television, many areas will have no form of digital television for S4C or any other service available for many viewers in Wales?
Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)
Order. We have discussed the fact that these issues are complicated and interrelated. In fact, the transmission issue is not directly related to clause 199 and the duties of S4C but rather to the transmission company. However, the hon. Gentleman has raised the point and I am perfectly happy to allow the Minister to respond.
Dr Kim Howells (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Pontypridd, Labour)
First, Ofcom will not have the funding to embark on upgrading relay stations. May I disabuse the hon. Gentleman on one thing? Those of us who live on the south-facing slopes of the Welsh hills are not without satellite signals. I have received Sky satellite signals for the past 12 years, as has everybody else I know in Pontypridd, which is in a south-facing valley.
Dr Kim Howells (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Pontypridd, Labour)
No, I will not, because the hon. Gentleman has had enough time.
I remind the hon. Gentleman that we Welsh do not live in some cultural backwater. He should remember that a higher proportion of people have digital reception in Wales than in any other part of Great Britain. That might be due to satellite coverage, but Wales was the testing ground in the 1950s for cable coverage, and my own village had cable. The coverage
was stopped and cable did not develop for 30 years—that is absolutely true.
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford, Conservative)
This has been a useful brief debate. Given that S4C has demonstrated a commitment to subtitling and that, on that basis, RNID does not consider the amendment to be necessary, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 199 ordered to stand part of the Bill.