Clause 10 - Entitlement
Tax Credits Bill
3:00 pm
Ms Dawn Primarolo (Paymaster General, HM Treasury; Bristol South, Labour)
I do not have that information with me. I really do not have it, and Committee members may keep me on my feet for as long as they wish, but I know that I shall not have the information immediately to hand. Hon. Gentlemen started asking for more information as soon as I put the figure of 1 million on the table. We are trying to deal with the problem in the labour market caused by persistent poverty that traps households of people aged 25 and over without children. There are plenty of indications that that needs to be dealt with, I shall be a little more careful when I cite figures in a certain area because they may be sliced in many ways. There is a problem in the labour market for that age range and we must approach it cautiously. Our objectives are correct, but we must be careful about the way in which they interact with the minimum wage and opportunities in the labour market.
We have taken the cautious approach of starting with 25 years, notwithstanding the exceptions, and the 30-hour rule. That will help people in that group to move on through the labour market and to improve their position and wages without the current stark comparisons between households with children and those without, even when compensation is available for the cost of children in those households.
On the alternative test and the definition of direct care, I do not understand why the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs wants to use the concept. Clause 8 was the correct place in which to deal with responsibility and care, but I do not see what benefit would be gained from using a concept of direct care. The concept of the main carer having responsibility, as we discussed under clause 8, is well understood here and in other areas—for example, child benefit. I just cannot see what would be gained by using the concept of direct care. It would simply add another definition, but would in fact mean the same as the existing definition.
The hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs is trying to tighten the provision, but his amendments would not work and are unnecessary. I can see that I have not done so well this time in convincing him. Unless he stands up to voice blindingly obvious points that will make things clearer, and I do not see how he could, the question on direct care is not relevant. I ask him to withdraw the amendment.
I hope that I have clarified, in terms of age and household type, who would qualify for the working tax credit. I have also demonstrated the Government's thinking on how we will target a particular group, the age range of which starts at 25, by dealing with the restrictions in the working tax credit. The beauty of the tax credit is to allow for a foundation on which we can respond as the labour market changes. Pressures on work incentives and assistance, and on tackling poverty and unemployment traps, might change over time, so we have a framework. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment, and if he does not I will ask my colleagues to vote against it.