New Clause 10 - Railway safety accreditation scheme
Police Reform Bill [Lords]
4:30 pm
Mr Norman Baker (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)
I welcome you to our proceedings, Mr. O'Brien. Undoubtedly, there is a need to improve security on our railways. I am sure that most of us receive letters on that theme from our constituents, but I wonder whether the new clause is the right way in which to approach the problem. There is a need for safer stations and for there to be more staff at stations, which is clearly way beyond the Bill's remit. Unstaffed stations are an invitation to vandalism, and there is a need for CCTV on trains and at stations, which was a point that was made this morning.
There is a need for an improved police presence, in general. I agree with the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins). I do not think that I have ever seen a transport police officer. I do not know how many there are, but they keep themselves very much to themselves, or perhaps they travel in plain clothes. The new clause suggests that there should be a low tier of personnel with the power to deal with low-level incidents, but probably not the matters that are of most concern to the travelling public, which is the fear that they—especially women—may be attacked on trains or at badly lit or unstaffed stations. The new clause would deal with less of an issue, such as someone who may be making too much noise on a train because they had been drinking too much alcohol. Is that the right way to deal with even that problem?
The Minister will know of our philosophical problems with the idea of giving private sector employees powers to give fixed penalty tickets to members of the public and to operate as a private police force within certain tightly defined boundaries. I have a problem with that, in particular in the case of the railway industry, where private-sector companies
have not exactly covered themselves with glory. The idea of Railtrack, or, even worse, Jarvis, handing out fixed penalty notices does not fill me with much enthusiasm. It may be the wrong kind of police on the line as far as the public are concerned.
Having said that, I have some sympathy with the Minister's suggestion that there should be a power to deal with nuisances, caused, I suppose, by young people, such as throwing stones or trespassing. If we could do something to stop that, I have some sympathy with his point. However, presumably the trespassing powers will be unable to deal with the many hunts that seem to roam across railway lines willy-nilly and do not seem to be controlled or stopped by anyone, let alone operatives under such a scheme.
I listened carefully to the Minister, and he may correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that his proposal is that people who are accredited under the railway safety scheme will have not only those two extra powers but powers that apply in a community safety scheme.
Mr. Denham indicated assent.