Mr Des Browne (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Northern Ireland Office; Kilmarnock & Loudoun, Labour)

That was a powerful argument against any retirement age being prescribed at all, as it would be interpreted by the hon. Member for Isle of Wight as discrimination against older people. For many people, reaching retirement age provides an opportunity to move into another phase of their lives, and is a relief from the pressure of spending most of their lives in a working environment. However, let us concentrate on the issue before us.

The hon. Member for Isle of Wight seems to be ignorant as regards judges' retirement ages, whereas the hon. Member for Reigate was at least prepared to say that he was not clear on the matter. Over the past 20 years or thereabouts, judicial appointments that were traditionally made for life—or, more properly, ad vitam aut culpam—have been made subject to retirement ages. When I first began to practise law, there were judges who were well into their 80s, some of whom had to be physically carried on to the bench. I agree with the hon. Member for Reigate that, intellectually, they were very sharp, but for very good reasons a view was taken that judges should have relevant experience of life when dealing with the issues that come before them.

Repeated criticisms were made of decisions made by judges, on the grounds that they were old buffers or codgers or knew nothing about life. Jokes and stories were told about people appearing before judges who did not even understand the up-to-date vocabulary. Everyone knows the story of the judge who had to ask who the Beatles were in the 1960s.

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