Schedule 2 - Statutory dispute resolution procedures
Employment Bill
3:30 pm
Mr Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central, Labour)
That was a dynamic demonstration of the flexibility of our procedures. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge posed a question and my two legal advisers took it up on my behalf. The words were mine, but they came from other mouths. However, we can make some progress if we examine the intention here. The hon. Gentleman said that he was more tempted by one interpretation than the other—I do not know how tempted he is. Perhaps he will tell us.
We have established the simple point that any reasonable person would assume that an employer or employee would take steps to establish the facts if it were necessary, or would at any rate be privy to the facts. In terms of the hypothetical and real cases that we have discussed when the employer was the victim, one would assume that he would be well aware of the facts. The alternative would be that the employer could act without knowing the facts, which would be unreasonable, and, one hopes, would be judged unreasonable by the tribunal.
If it is obvious that if the situation is universal and all employers find themselves bound in the same way, we are no longer discussing an area about which a tribunal may come to a judgment. If that is the case, in fairness to all parties, there would be genuine merit in having the duty on employers in the schedule. That would not merely be a device—there would be genuine merit in the amendment. After all, it is an easy and a common-sense duty, but having it there would remind them that if they failed to subscribe to it, they would find themselves judged by the tribunal, which would find against them. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to consider not the form of words—it is defective in that ''establishment of facts'' is better than the wording of the amendment—but the spirit of the amendment, which should command support across the Committee.