Ms Caroline Flint (Don Valley, Labour)

I seek clarification from the Minister because subsection 12 provides that science shall not include the subject of

''Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome and Human Immunodeficiency Virus''.

Groups, and colleagues who are members of the all-party AIDS and HIV group, have raised questions about that element. I understand the issues around sex education and health, and am mindful of having to find a balance between, on the one hand, parents' rights under the legislation to withdraw their children from sex education and, on the other, health issues and what fits in with the Bill and may be taught within the ambit of a science lesson.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

My hon. Friend raises a valid point, which has been raised by other hon. Members. At this stage, the Government are not proposing to change the status quo, but I am willing to give a commitment to discuss it further with my hon. Friend and other hon. Members to see whether there is a satisfactory way forward. The Government feel that it is appropriate to maintain the status quo on such a sensitive issue, but are open-minded, and willing to consider any representation.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

Is it the case that science teachers may not refer to AIDS or HIV in a science lesson or give any indication about their nature? If that is true, it is nonsense, and I would echo the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Don Valley.

Mr. Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. It is the case, because of legislation introduced by a Conservative Government. There are grounds for re-examining the issue and considering representations. There will be strong views on both sides of the argument as it is an emotive issue, and it is important in those circumstances to strike the right balance. I am willing to consider the matter further, although the Bill at this stage will maintain the status quo.

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)

The Minister clarified that in an unexpected way. I am sure that he is right, but a lay reading of subsection (12) does not imply what he has said. All that the Secretary of State may do is ensure that the science attainment targets, programmes of study and assessment arrangements laid down in the national curriculum do not include those elements. As far as I can work out, there is no prohibition on a teacher answering a question on those subjects. Will the Minister consider that and perhaps correct the impression that he gave to the Committee?

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I can confirm that the hon. Gentleman is correct in his assertion. A teacher may answer a question, but the legitimate debate is also about the national curriculum requirement. It was decided some years ago that it would be appropriate to prohibit the issues that are specifically mentioned. Whether that is still appropriate is a matter for a reasonable discussion and debate, in which we are willing to engage.

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)

When the Minister says prohibit, he means prohibit from inclusion in the national curriculum, not prohibit from being taught.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

It cannot be part of programmes of study.

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)

It cannot be part of programmes of study laid down under the national curriculum; it can be part of a programme of study developed by a school, teacher or governing body. We are in the same territory as when my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) was accused of banning the teaching of recent history. All that was prohibited was the inclusion of recent history in the national curriculum.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that the debate is legitimate, notwithstanding his point about whether it should be in the national curriculum.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

The Minister was trying to be reasonable in his answer to the question raised by the hon. Member for Don Valley. It is clearly nonsense that a teacher can teach about HIV/AIDS, except in a science lesson as part of the national curriculum. No rational being could support that, other than fundamentalists who believe that that sort of thing should not be taught anywhere, in which case we are back to the section 28 debate. Before the hon. Member for Isle of Wight goes into apoplexy, let me say that the Minister worried me when he said that he understood that that was a genuine issue for debate, but that there would be no change during the Bill's consideration. That is sad, as

it invites us on Report and in another place to table amendments that challenge the Government's thinking. I suspect that the House would greatly support such a challenge.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I have clarified my assurance to my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley. Ministers are willing to consider the issue before the Bill is passed, although our position is outlined in the clause. My hon. Friend raised a legitimate issue, and Opposition Members tabled several legitimate amendments. The Government are willing to reflect on whether we should maintain the status quo, or whether the status quo is illegitimate and unacceptable.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 83 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 84, 104 and 105 ordered to stand part of the Bill.