Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 145, in page 32, line 32, leave out subsection (1).

Mr Peter Pike (Burnley, Labour)

With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments: No. 148, in page 32, line 36, leave out from ''Regulations'' to end of line 1 on page 34, and insert:

''may make provision—

(a) to allow a panel constituted in accordance with sections 64 to 68 of the School Standards and Framework Act to consider the interests of the whole school community;

(b) that a defect in the procedure leading to exclusion shall not invalidate any decision made to exclude a pupil; and

(c) to amend Schedule 18 to the School Standards and Framework Act to assist headteachers to maintain discipline in schools.''

No. 261, in page 33, line 5, at end insert:

''(e) as to matters to which an appeal panel constituted in accordance with the regulations shall have regard, including in particular the health, safety and welfare of persons employed to work at the school or pupil referral unit as the case may be and the protection of such persons from false and malicious allegations of misconduct.''

No. 262, in page 33, line 5, at end insert:

''(ee) as to the duties of local education authorities and/or governing bodies to make sufficient provision for any emotional and behavioural difficulties of any pupil to which this section relates.''

No. 341, in page 33, line 5, at end insert:

''(e) outlining specific circumstances in which an appeal panel can over-rule an exclusion''.

No. 117, in page 33, line 10, leave out ''any'' and insert ''the''.

No. 143, in page 198, line 19, leave out ''Sections 64 to 68''.

No. 144, in page 198, line 51, leave out ''to 18'' and insert ''to 17''.

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)

I thank the Minister for his words. One of his hon. Friends was right to say that I was embarrassed to hear what he was saying this morning, but I am glad that what he was saying has not transpired.

Amendments Nos. 143 and 144 are significant because they would restore most of the clauses from the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, which the Bill will otherwise remove. The Government accept the status quo and are saying, in effect, that it is better to have a clear status quo than to have shifting sands. In common with much of the Bill, the problem

with what the Government propose on exclusions is that it presents schools with the danger of constant changes to the rules on exclusions.

The Government have done that because from time to time court cases and other proceedings decide that the law was not exactly as they thought it was. In some cases, the law was not as anyone thought it was until an especially enterprising lawyer came on the scene. I accepted that in amendment No. 148, which would insert the most recent set of reasons why the Government have proposed that the statutory regime should be more flexible. I accept that it is important that a panel that is constituted in accordance with the law should be able to take account of the interests of the whole school community. I also accept that a defect in procedure should not invalidate a decision to exclude a pupil, and that the Secretary of State should be able to make further amendments to the framework to assist head teachers to maintain discipline. I do not accept that the whole structure should be taken out of the law and put into regulation, which is what the Government are seeking to achieve.

Although it might appear to the contrary, amendment No. 145, which would delete clause 49(1), does not have the effect of preventing head teachers from excluding pupils, because amendment No. 148 would reinstate section 64(1) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. I will not trouble the Committee at great length, but we are all familiar with the question whether the framework should be in the Bill and the details should be in the regulations, or even whether little of the framework should be in the Bill and most of it in the regulations, which is what the Government seem to be proposing.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

Am I right in thinking that I can speak to amendment No. 117 in this group, and that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight has spoken to the other amendments?

Mr Peter Pike (Burnley, Labour)

The lead amendment was moved, but the others within the group are open to debate. Amendment No. 117 is within the group.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

Is it in order for me to speak to it?

Mr Peter Pike (Burnley, Labour)

Yes.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

I listened with interest to the comments of the hon. Member for Isle of Wight. He raised an important issue of principle. If the Government do not want to include detail in the Bill—they made it clear that they want to leave as much as possible to secondary legislation—it is important that any advice and regulations are precise. By leaving out ''any'' and inserting ''the'', the amendment seeks clarification from the Government about their policy and the proposed regulations on exclusions.

After admissions, to which I will not return, the issue of exclusions is one of the most vexing areas for schools and parents. Parents often believe that their children have been treated badly, and heads and teachers often believe that they have been treated too

leniently. It is crucial that guidance is precise so that both parties know exactly where they stand in cases of exclusion, particularly if a child has been excluded permanently. If we are to have regulations, they must be precise.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

I rise to put the case in favour of my amendment and those of my hon. Friends. Amendment No. 261 would introduce an important protection for those who are at the heart of our education system: teachers and other employees working in schools. All members of the Committee will be familiar with cases over many years—the numbers seem to be increasing—of allegations made against school staff members. Sometimes they are completely unfounded. Perhaps of greatest concern are physical attacks made on teaching and non-teaching staff. The most difficult cases are those that not only call into question the conduct of a member of staff but suggest that if the action were to be repeated, there would be a serious possibility that the safety, health and—at the least—the professional standing of the member of staff and their ability to maintain discipline in the classroom may be undermined.

What I seek to do through amendment No. 261 is to ensure that certain elements are included in the regulations referred to in clause 49(3). Paragraph (a) states that regulations may require

''prescribed persons to be given prescribed information''.

Paragraph (b) requires

''the responsible body, in prescribed cases, to consider whether the pupil should be reinstated''.

Paragraph (c) requires

''the local education authority to make arrangements for enabling a prescribed person to appeal'',

and paragraph (d) sets out the procedure for such appeals.

Amendment No. 261 would add a fifth paragraph, (e), that would allow the regulations to set out

''matters to which an appeal panel . . . shall have regard, including in particular the health, safety and welfare of persons employed to work at the school or pupil referral unit as the case may be and the protection of such persons from false and malicious allegations of misconduct.''

I shall take the two categories separately. First, it is self-evident that if an outstanding disciplinary matter involves, or appears to involve, a physical or other assault on a member of staff, the appeals body should be required to have regard to those circumstances in carrying out its functions. If a pupil who has made a physical or verbal assault, perhaps making grossly offensive remarks, is readmitted to the school by an appeal panel, it may have a serious effect on discipline in the school, in the classroom and, potentially, on the life, career and perhaps the mental state of a member of staff. The member of staff who suffered at the hands of a violent or abusive pupil may be forced to encounter that pupil again in the classroom, but even if they are not, the pupil and the teacher may encounter each other in the school, which may have serious consequences. It may lead to a repeat of an earlier

problem and perhaps to a tit-for-tat conflict in which the parties may be drawn into reciprocal action, which would be regrettable.

If Ministers want to take seriously the health, safety and welfare of people in schools they will accept the amendment, which would be of major benefit to teaching and other school staff.

Secondly, allegations of physical or other abuse and other types of malicious and false allegations made by pupils against members of the teaching staff cause great anxiety to the teachers who are accused and to those who observe the effect of such allegations. Many teachers live in fear that they may be subject to a false and malicious allegation, which, given the nature of some allegations, may have consequences for their professional and personal lives. We can all imagine the effect of certain allegations on anyone living in a community—particularly if, like school staff, they occupy positions of trust and respect.

The problem has been a matter of growing concern and many people within the teaching profession would like it tackled more effectively. Amendment No. 261, in dealing with health and safety implications and providing protection against damage to reputation and career as well as physical wellbeing, would make a real contribution to improving the position of those who teach and work in our schools. I hope that Ministers will accept it, or at least agree to deal with the issue by framing their own proposals. We look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

Amendment No. 341 is designed to provide more detail by introducing another paragraph to outline the specific circumstances in which an appeal panel can overrule an exclusion. It is intended to generate debate on what Ministers view as appropriate circumstances for such overruling and to generate a power to set out those circumstances in regulations, which would improve the Bill.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

I want to refer specifically to amendment No. 341, which deals with an issue of great concern to heads and chairs of governors in my constituency—and, I suspect, in other parts of the country. Recently, schools have often been overruled by appeals panels, leaving both the head and chair of governors profoundly unhappy as they feel that they cannot exercise authority in their own schools.

I know of two specific cases in which head teachers permanently excluded pupils for drug dealing in school, which is a criminal matter. The pupils appealed to an exclusion panel and were reinstated. That creates immense difficulties for heads and chairs of governors. When a pupil has been seen dealing in drugs, thus committing a criminal act in school, has been expelled but is subsequently reinstated by an appeal panel, it totally undermines the ability of heads and teachers to manage and maintain discipline in their schools. When other teenagers see that it is possible to get away with it, relatively few sanctions can be applied. It leads to the attitude: ''I was reinstated on appeal, so you cannot touch me''.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

May I just clarify whether the police or courts confirmed that teenagers were dealing in drugs within the particular school?

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

To the best of my knowledge, the schools chose not to involve the police, which was probably appropriate in the interests of the teenagers concerned. When we discover kids doing that, we do not always want to involve the police. I am not a great believer in criminalising young people if it is not necessary.

My point is that the Government should give clear guidelines on what is permissible in the exclusion process. Heads and governors must have certainty that when they opt for exclusion, they are on reasonably safe ground and will be overruled by an exclusion panel only in certain circumstances. There will always be grey areas and uncertain cases, but there should be a benchmark. I remember another case in which a head teacher went into an exclusion panel without any representation to find a raft of legal and professional advisers set against the school. They had an intense and difficult argument that led to a reinstatement decision being taken. We need a framework to enable everyone involved—teachers and panels—to be certain of the ground on which they operate.

The amendment would not make specific provision in respect of what those circumstances or guidelines should be. It would give the Secretary of State the right to issue regulations to set them out, and I know from conversations that such guidelines would be enormously welcomed. It is not a question of telling the Government what to do, but giving them the power to respond to something for which I know that heads and chairs of governors are asking. The Government have been reluctant to accept Opposition amendments, but I hope that they can agree to this one. It does not tie their hands to do anything beyond providing guidelines if they deem it to be appropriate. In that spirit, and given that heads and chairs of governors want to see a greater structure to the appeal process, I commend the amendment.

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest, Conservative)

I will address amendment No. 262, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale, West (Mr. Brady) briefly alluded. It concerns an additional category that we believe should be added to clause 49(3), which is that local education authorities and governing bodies should have set out in regulations guidance on how, when and in which circumstances sufficient provision should be made for emotional or behavioural difficulties of a pupil who has been excluded under the clause's provisions.

We believe that the matter should be addressed in the Bill is because it relates to the particular difficulties that education authorities and governing bodies have with pupils who have special educational needs. As I have mentioned in earlier debates, the range of needs is enormous: from small behavioural problems that can be put right if recognised early, to large problems that, if exclusion became necessary, would mean that

the pupil's parents should have the comfort of knowing that their child's condition was taken into specific consideration.

Yesterday in Westminster Hall we had a good debate on autism, which a few members of the Committee attended. It is now recognised as an important and serious mainstream problem, not just a rare illness. I noted that no Education Minister was present. I make no criticism: Ministers are very busy. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), responded to the debate, and did so extremely well. However, as no Education Minister was present, Ministers in this Committee may not be aware of the conclusion that was reached by all sides yesterday.

The problems of families with children with autism and autism spectrum disorders have been sidelined. This is autism awareness year. In the spirit of making people who are responsible in this area aware of the problems I believe that this matter should appear on the face of the Bill. [Interruption.] The Minister is muttering that that is not what the amendment says. Although the word ''autism'' does not appear, it is covered by the term ''behavioural difficulties''. If the Minister wishes to intervene I am happy to give way to him.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I will speak later.

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest, Conservative)

It is generally accepted—the Government accept this and previous Governments are also culpable—that education authorities, social services departments, health authorities, school governors and others in authority have not had a comprehensive plan for dealing with autistic children. This is yet another place where such a problem can arise, but there is no specific duty, nor indeed guidance, for any of those Government bodies to address it in a particular way. It ought to be here in the Bill.

Mr Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury, Conservative)

A set of circumstances in my constituency has caused a great deal of concern to me and my constituents. Some autistic children have been classified as suffering from emotional and behavioural difficulties, although it is debatable whether that is appropriate. That is a side issue and we should not stray too far. However, I would not wish it to be misunderstood. One of the biggest issues in my constituency, and I know that I am not alone, has been the reduction in facilities and places for children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. There would be scope under amendment No. 262 to make it absolutely clear in regulations what has to be taken into account when making provision for such children. It therefore seems sensible to include it in the Bill.

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest, Conservative)

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention. If Parliament gives local education authorities, governing bodies and any other body

power to do something, we should set out in primary legislation what we expect them to do. I seek the Minister's assurance that notwithstanding the absence of Education Ministers from yesterday's debate on autism, they have accepted the subject's importance and that they will keep it at the front of their minds and not treat it merely as a side issue when considering the need sometimes to exclude children with particular behavioural problems. The vast majority of families of such children are already under enormous stress because of the child's medical condition, and it is only fair to families and children that the matter be given prominence.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

We are discussing an important subject on which there is a large degree of consensus about objectives and priorities. We are dealing with a variety of issues. One is the balance between the best interests of an individual child and the overall interests of a group of children comprising a class or a whole school. Classroom teachers and head teachers must try to strike the right balance day to day, but it is not easy.

As the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West said, it is important to minimise any feeling of fear or intimidation among teachers. It is impossible to ask the members of any profession to work to the best of their ability if they feel, as a result of personal experience or the experiences of colleagues or family, that doing their job is dangerous. Government and other politicians have a responsibility to support teachers and head teachers in that respect. It is sad that they do not always have the right level of support from parents when children behave in an unacceptable and threatening way. We hope that in most civilised communities and societies, teachers receive the support and backing of parents. I think that the whole Committee wants to send a message about what teachers and head teachers should be able to expect from parents and others in the community.

We also have a responsibility to excluded children and we must ensure that decisions are fair, transparent and objective, not subjective. Inadvertently, the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) used an example that showed some of the difficulties vividly. Anecdotally, he referred to a head teacher's view that some young teenagers had been caught dealing—a strong word—drugs in the school. They were excluded on that basis but were allowed back to school on appeal. However, there was no evidence that any objective observer of the situation, such as the police, the courts or the criminal justice system, had verified or confirmed that the young people had been dealing drugs. To be fair, the hon. Gentleman responded to my point. He said, rightly, that schools are often reluctant to involve the police and the criminal justice system because they do not want to criminalise children.

However, excluding a child from school, particularly permanently, is potentially equally stigmatising and damaging to their development, educational progression, career and adult life. I have never experienced exclusion—perhaps I should have—but it is a powerful, traumatic and stigmatising experience not only for the child, but for most families.

We accept that one difficulty is that some families show insufficient interest in their child's education and behaviour at school.

For the vast majority of families, the permanent exclusion of a son or daughter from school is traumatic and stigmatising. Legislation must ensure a genuinely fair and objective system that allows the right to appeal on reasonable grounds. It is a matter of natural justice. Young people and their families must have that right.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

I pretty much agree with the Minister, who makes a good argument in favour of our amendment. Where a child has been caught dealing drugs but the school, reluctant to criminalise, seeks to adopt civil rather than criminal redress, it is important to ask whether the case has been seen through in a proper judicial way. Does that example not reinforce the case for heads and exclusion panels to have some guidelines? If the police had not been brought in and the child not convicted of the offence, without compelling evidence, the normal inclination of the appeal panel would be to quash the exclusion. That demonstrates how guidelines could enormously facilitate the whole process.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I accept the hon. Gentleman's point about the importance of guidance and support. We are talking about young people being excluded from school for dealing drugs. Appeals panels would consist of strange and unreasonable people if, having examined the facts—not anecdote or an off-the-record conversation with an MP—and concluded that the youngsters did indeed deal drugs in school, they decided that the exclusion had been wrong.

The hon. Gentleman concluded that the teenagers were drugs dealers, but did not provide the Committee with enough detail about the evidence to justify the panel saying that the case made by the person who saw the drug dealing was borne out by the evidence. Although clear and constructive guidance may be helpful, a panel of reasonable people considering evidence should not be expected always to find in favour of the head teacher and the school. If it did always find in favour, there would be no point in having a fair and objective appeals process.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

I still do not disagree with the Minister. In these cases, two governing bodies and two head teachers were deeply upset. They felt that their authority within the school had been overruled and that they had been let down by the appeals process. The amendment is simply designed to give the Secretary of State the power to issue regulations and set a framework for a process that will reduce the likelihood of one or other side feeling deeply let down.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

The clause makes it clear that the Government will issue guidance to set out the parameters, the roles and responsibilities of the appeals process and the people who conduct it. I am referring to guidance rather than regulations. The hon. Gentleman wants the people taking these decisions to be guided to examine facts appropriately and follow a robust and transparent process. Surely making it clear that the guidance suggested by the hon. Gentleman

will be issued is every bit as powerful and achieves exactly the same objective as the amendment that would require the Government to issue regulations. It is no different from the hon. Gentleman's example of the decision that was taken in that particular case. What matters is that the appeals panel has guidance and understands the basis on which it should make decisions sensibly, objectively and fairly.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

That raises another significant point. The Minister said that guidance will be issued. My hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell gave the example of pupils who are found to be dealing in, and probably by extension, taking, drugs. The Home Secretary recently decided to downgrade the treatment of certain illegal drugs and to treat them differently, especially marijuana. Will the Minister make it clear whether the guidance will require schools and appeals panels to treat marijuana as an illegal drug, or are the Government happy to go along with the Home Secretary's approach of downgrading the seriousness of that drug? The Minister knows that there has been confusion in some LEAs about that.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I will try to address the point made by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West later in the debate. It is important that we make progress.

The hon. Member for Isle of Wight asked whether it is appropriate to include some of the material in the regulations rather than in legislation. We have had that debate throughout the proceedings, and have disagreed about whether it is more appropriate and effective to include some of the issues in the regulations or whether it should be in primary legislation. It is clear that secondary legislation will have the same legal effect as primary legislation. If one considers the legislative framework, moving matters to secondary legislation will in no way lead to reduced rights for individuals or change the fairness of the procedures for schools, pupils or teachers. I want to make it clear that at this stage there is no intention to make changes to the current system other than to those on which we have consulted and that are in the public domain. Several other important points have been made that are related more to the substance of policy than to whether these matters should be in primary or secondary legislation.

The Government have sympathy with the intentions of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West and his hon. Friends in tabling amendments Nos. 261, 262 and 341. We largely agree with their objectives, which are similar to our own. The differences are in the approach to achieving them. On amendment 261, the health, safety and welfare of staff and other pupils at a school or pupil referral unit will be an element.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

The Minister made an important point and gave a good example of where the Government intend to provide a statutory framework within which exclusion panels will operate. I am not sure why he is reluctant to broaden the framework.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I addressed that in my contribution. The Opposition's objective will be achieved by the Government's proposed course of action. Surely, the key issue for parents, pupils, teachers, head teachers and those who sit on appeals panels is that we achieve the objective in a transparent and up-front manner.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

This is an important part of the Bill. There is not a million miles between the Minister, the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell and me. What schools require from the system, and what we are arguing for in our different ways, is consistency across the model. Nothing is worse than an appeals panel making decisions following one interpretation of the guidance and another making exactly the opposite decision somewhere else. That causes problems and is why it is crucial that we have clear definitions about the circumstances in which an appeals panel would make its decisions.

The Minister is trying. We want him to go further and provide details of the guidance. I hope that we will be able to see it before the Committee concludes its business.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I have made it clear that guidance will be issued and that we will ensure consistency and co-ordination across the country. I will attempt to provide the necessary detail to the Committee before it concludes its deliberations.

I wish to deal with the second part of amendment No. 261, which is about false allegations against people who work in schools, particularly teachers. We are already taking measures to deal with that. We are establishing a network of regional co-ordinators to ensure that any such allegations are dealt with fairly and quickly. We are revising and updating existing guidance to schools and LEAs about allegations and child protection, and we are also setting up a website with guidance model procedures and examples of good practice.

We believe that that will be more effective than legislation, because regulations in themselves do not offer protection. They may only offer a remedy, and the remedy of exclusion already exists for allegations that are proved false. The Government's actions achieve the objectives of the second part of amendment No. 261.

Amendment No. 262 deals with another important issue. What happens to children who are autistic or who have other special educational needs? Current legislation places a duty on local authorities and governing bodies in respect of pupils with special educational needs, including those with emotional and behavioural difficulties. If a pupil of compulsory school age remains out of school as a result of exclusion, the pupil's local education authority is under a duty to provide—these are the key words—''suitable education'' for that pupil, which is defined as

''efficient education suitable to [the pupil's] age, ability and aptitude and to any special educational needs he may have.''

There is already a specific legislative requirement that addresses the anxieties that have been expressed about children with special needs.

I shall refer briefly to refer to the comments made by the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) who has had to leave the Committee—I hope that it is not because I said anything to offend her. Autism is an important issue that has not been taken seriously enough. Society and the Government must do more to recognise the importance of the issue and the strain that autism puts upon families. Special needs put more of a strain on families when there is a collective denial that it is such a big issue. Members of the Committee may be surprised when I pay tribute to the work of the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner), who is a member of the all-party group on autism, which has recently produced a most helpful report on the subject.

The Government are committed to ending the collective denial and to tackling autism seriously. We are taking measures such as considering how to collect data on pupils with autism from 2003 or 2004; we have funded the National Autistic Society to pilot its accreditation programme in the maintained sector and we are considering how the results of that pilot can be used to spread good practice more widely. The Government's autism working group, which includes representatives of the National Autistic Society, PACE—Parents' Autism Campaign for Education—and others, will produce guidance on good practice in providing for children and young people with autistic spectrum disorder.

As to training, of the £82 million we are providing this year for special educational needs under the standards fund, £30 million is intended for training. We intend to increase that fund to £91 million next year and will suggest that local education authorities consider autism as a priority in training staff in future. The Government will not perpetuate the past denial of the problem or the insufficient status and importance of autism. In view of the legislative requirement to ensure that children with special needs are included and have access to the education that they deserve and given the Government's initiatives on autism, I hope that Opposition Members will accept that we are addressing the matters that they raised and ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

On amendment No. 341, the circumstances in which an appeals panel should be able to overrule an exclusion should be a matter for guidance rather than legislation. It is important that panels take into account the Department's guidance in taking a decision, but in the final analysis, they must remain free to take their own decisions, having considered the circumstances of the case, which, as the example quoted earlier showed, can be complex and difficult. Taking decisions on appeals against permanent exclusion is not straightforward and it would be overly constraining to make the circumstances in which an exclusion can be overruled a matter of law. If people going through the system are to feel a sense of justice, it is vital to treat every case on its merits. I reiterate my view that guidance is the most appropriate route to ensure that the aim of fairness is fulfilled.

Officials are currently consulting on draft revised guidance that has been developed in partnership with the National Association of Head Teachers, which

proposes to make persistent bullying and carrying an offensive weapon reasons for exclusion for which the Secretary of State would normally regard it as inappropriate to reinstate. The guidance would make it clear that such behaviour would be grounds on which appeals panels should not overturn an exclusion decision. Those are tangible examples of where revised guidance can make a difference, and will support appeals panels in taking the right decisions in difficult circumstances.

It is a statutory requirement that head teachers, governing bodies, LEAs and independent panels must have regard to guidance. We believe that the guidance will address many of the concerns expressed by heads and others about the lack of clear direction for panels. In that context, it is not necessary or desirable to constrain the panel further, as the amendment proposes.

I can also confirm, in relation to amendment No. 117, that we intend to keep guidance in force under the new provisions. That amendment can, therefore, be withdrawn. To respond to the question of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West concerning drugs, we hope to issue the revised draft guidance on exclusions next week. It will make it clear that in normal circumstances, the Secretary of State would regard it as inappropriate to reinstate a pupil who had been permanently excluded for misuse of a controlled drug. As far as I am aware, cannabis remains a controlled drug, and nothing that the Home Office has said contradicts that. The guidance will make it clear to appeals panels what their responsibilities will be in cases such as that referred to by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West concerning dealing or using cannabis.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

I am grateful that the Minister dealt with my question concerning the use of illegal drugs. His response partially answers my concerns, in that he says that the guidance will preclude reinstatement of a pupil permanently excluded on the grounds of misuse of controlled drugs. Will he go further and undertake that the guidance will also inform schools and LEAs that permanent exclusion should remain the typical course of action if a pupil is misusing illegal drugs. The Minister is saying that the Government will issue guidance about how appeals should be handled. However, he is not giving guidance, which schools desperately need, about how the Government expect them to treat cannabis now that it is regarded in a less serious way by criminal law.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

That is a contradictory argument. We have heard a lot of arguments during the proceedings about schools, and those in positions of responsibility being trusted as professionals to make sensible and reasonable and decisions. The issue is straightforward. The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell referred to a head teacher who did not want to criminalise the young people in question, which is why he did not call in the police. Whether one thinks that is right or wrong, it is a reasonable judgment for a head teacher to make. Each head teacher will judge a case on its

merits. The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell used the word ''dealer''. The vast majority of head teachers would take a different view of a young person who was dealing drugs within a school or its vicinity than they would of a young person who was found for the first time in possession of a small amount of marijuana.

I do not want the hon. Gentleman to tell people outside the Committee that an Education Minister says that it is okay to carry marijuana to school, because it is clearly unacceptable for children, or anyone, to break the law of the land, which says that cannabis remains a controlled drug. We are engaged in grown-up politics and know that head teachers must make difficult decisions about complex issues every day of every week. It would be wrong to take that discretion away from head teachers.

The majority of the debate has been dominated by permanent exclusion. The option is available to teachers to use fixed-period exclusions, and there are different levels of unacceptable behaviour for which individual head teachers must decide a management of discipline policy. From a good practice point of view, everyone in the school should be aware of, signed up to and involved in it, and understand clearly the consequences of particular forms of behaviour. A good head teacher will ensure that that happens and not simply deal with each case randomly. It is unacceptable to take any illegal substance to school, but it is right that head teachers are allowed the discretion to make judgments about the powers at their disposal, whether that is no action, fixed-period exclusion or a permanent exclusion.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

The Minister's response is incredibly reasonable. I was pleased that he mentioned fixed-term as well as permanent exclusions, because they are two specific categories. It would worry me enormously if the Minister were to issue guidance that said that someone could be permanently excluded for a criminal offence without being reported for it. That would be an unacceptable contradiction.

There is also a difference between the Home Secretary's proposed declassification of the possession of cannabis from class B to class C—and in some guidance coming from the Police Federation about how it is tackling the drugs problem on the streets—and his insistence that there will be no let up in the pressure on dealers. I largely agree with the Home Secretary's approach, and we must consider what is happening in Brixton. The local police superintendent has said that they will not stop and charge people for having small amounts of cannabis on them, which surely must apply to young people. If those people were dealing, they would be dealt with.

The same issue arises with weapons, and they are the two issues that reflect a growing problem in our schools and are a real threat to members of staff and other students. When the Minister produces his guidance, before the Bill is passed if that is possible, will he pay specific attention to those two issues?

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that we will address those two issues in the way that he suggests.

If I may, I shall make a partially flippant point. The Committee will remember the Conservative party's debate about drugs immediately before the general election, and it is likely that more than half the shadow Cabinet of the day would have been permanently excluded from school and had their life stigmatised—although they may have ended up with a better career—had we adopted the simplistic view expressed by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

I am sorry that the Minister is not prepared to treat this important subject seriously. I asked for clear and sensible guidance because schools, whether in Brixton or elsewhere, are unsure of what is expected of them by the Government and communities that they serve. They perceive the law to be in a state of flux. Specific instances of schools in Oxfordshire were raised, in which they were given guidance by the LEA that was then amended. There have been problems, and it is unacceptable for the Minister to refuse to give any proper guidance about how the Government expect the matter to be addressed. It is not fair on heads and governors to expect them to be left in the dark and arrive at whatever position they see fit. The Government are stimulating a debate and changing the lie of the land, and schools have a right to know where the Government want them to stand.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman intervened after I made it clear what the draft guidance on the issue will say. It will say that the Secretary of State would normally regard it as inappropriate to reinstate a pupil who had been permanently excluded for misuse of a controlled drug—and the drugs to which the hon. Gentleman referred are controlled. That is clear. When the hon. Gentleman intervened, he asked me about head teachers and gave a particular example of the action that he believed should be taken in a particular set of circumstances. My point was that a head teacher has at his or her disposal a range of disciplinary options when a child is in breach of the law of the land or, short of that, the rules of the school. We must continue to allow professional leaders of our schools to use their experience and good judgment to make the right decisions about the available range of sanctions. On the vast majority of occasions in this country, those head teachers and governing bodies take the common-sense, reasonable decisions.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

Will the Minister give way?

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I shall give way, but we really should make progress.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

I am intervening only because this is a particularly important point. The Minister has just read from the draft guidelines, which effectively said that a teenager who is found smoking a joint in school can be excluded and that an exclusion panel would not normally have the right to overrule. There is a different level of offence between a teenager caught smoking a joint behind the bike sheds and one caught selling joints across the school, but decisions taken by

different heads may vary because it is a subjective judgment. In setting out guidance rather than using a statutory framework, the Government are leaving the judgment to the subjective decision of heads and exclusion panels in a way that could lead to different judgments in different areas for the same action. I understand the comments of the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough. I would feel much more comfortable with a statutory and regulatory power rather than guidance.

Mr Peter Pike (Burnley, Labour)

Order. Before I call the Minister, I echo his comment before he gave way. I recognise that this is an important debate, but we should be making progress.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

Every day of every week, head teachers make difficult decisions in difficult circumstances and, hopefully, possession of all the facts. That is why they are head teachers; they are paid to take that responsibility. We are trying to reach a judgment with partial information and with no knowledge of a child's family circumstances, of other behaviour that the child may have exhibited in the school in the past, of the effect of that behaviour on the rest of the class, of whether it is a one-off incident or whether a problem child is causing mayhem in the school every day of the week.

This is becoming a fatuous discussion. It is clear what the draft guidance will tell appeals panels. We trust the professional judgment of head teachers to make reasonable and sensible decisions on these matters. In view of the reassurances that have been given and the fact that our objectives are similar, I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight has the lead amendment in this group and he may wish to comment on the amendments that stand in his name. I rise to respond to the Minister's remarks on amendments Nos. 261 and 341. Amendment No. 262 raised some important points and it was useful for them to be given an airing, but it was very much a probing amendment.

Amendment No. 261 is deeply serious. I am grateful that the Minister paid proper attention to it and gave credit for an attempt to tackle something that is accepted by the Government as a serious concern. He said that a statutory duty would be created under the Government's proposed regulations to balance the interests of the staff, the pupil and the rest of the school community. He went on to describe it as a matter of natural justice. We can all agree with much of that. My concern is that there is still a long distance between a requirement to balance the interests of the excluded pupil with those of the school community as a whole and our objective in amendment No. 261. It would give statutory footing to an attempt to protect the teaching and non-teaching staff of a school if health and safety issues or the possibility of malicious allegations come into play.

These are extremely important questions. I am not entirely satisfied that the regulations that the Government propose are sufficient to deal with the problem, notwithstanding the other measures that the Minister enumerated. I do not intend to press amendment No. 261 to a Division, but I stress the importance that the Opposition attach to the issue. Unless we see Government amendments or draft regulations that go a little further, we may table an amendment along those lines at a later stage.

We had an important debate on amendment No. 341, which has not reached a satisfactory conclusion. We could consider two different aspects, one of which I would characterise as the desire of heads and governors to have clearer criteria in regulations. That would be welcomed, and the amendment would allow more details to be provided. I am minded to ask my hon. Friends to support me in pressing the matter to a Division.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

Will my hon. Friend make the Minister aware that the amendment would protect head teachers, not dictate to them about their decisions, because different decisions would be taken in different places? Once heads had taken a decision, they would know what the framework would be.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has led me to my next point: the illuminating discussion on the Government's attitude towards exclusions of those possessing or dealing in illegal substances. That was an important debate, but it was not dealt with satisfactorily. The Minister did not take seriously some of our points.

Heads and governors have to deal with endless difficult decisions and perform balancing acts daily. They should have the maximum discretion to run schools as they deem appropriate, supported by their communities. There is a difference between what the Minister characterised as an attempt to constrain the freedom of heads and what we are seeking. We want to assist heads and governors by providing them with clear guidance on what is expected in a complicated area, which the House has not debated. Perhaps the Government do not have that in mind because it is not fashionable for the House to have a say in such matters. Ministers have initiated a debate on the treatment of illegal substances by criminal law, and that continued in the press. Heads and governors do not know where they are expected to draw the line on certain categories of illegal substance.

It is a matter of fairness to heads and governors to give them guidance, not an attempt to restrict their freedom. The Minister should note that the legislation and guidance would have a strange effect. A head teacher could decide permanently to exclude a pupil in one set of circumstances, whereas at a neighbouring school, in the same circumstances, the head may arrive at a different conclusion. The Government's guidance would perpetuate an imbalance, because it says only that it would be inappropriate to reinstate a permanently excluded pupil. If the Minister would really like to see discretion and flexibility, it seems odd

that he is happy to have, in one instance, the decision of a head set in stone, yet in the same circumstances his guidance would not prevent reinstatement.

Ministers have considerable thinking to do, and I hope that they do it quickly on a matter that is important to schools throughout the country. Schools are looking for guidance, and if Ministers refuse to give it, they will be left to drift and struggle with this difficult problem.

As I said at the outset, heads and governors want greater clarity in regulations about what is expected of them. In that context, I shall have to divide the Committee on amendment No. 341.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reassurances on amendment No. 117. Without actually seeing the regulations—I am glad that we will see them—it is difficult to decide whether they are comprehensive or appropriate enough to meet the particular circumstances. I am prepared to wait, and I urge the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West not to press the amendment until we have had a further opportunity to debate the matter on Report.

The National Association of Head Teachers and the Secondary Heads Association are relatively happy with the Bill. They do not, however, want to be straitjacketed. They want clarity in regulations and in the process of fixed exclusions, and I am pleased that Government have provided some reassurance on that.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

I want to make a few brief points following on from the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough. The Government have decided not to use regulations, but guidance. Amendment No.341 is designed to give the Government the power to use regulation if they want to. It would ensure that when a head teacher takes the difficult decision to exclude—the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough, as a former head, will recognise that it is difficult—he can be sure that a clear statutory framework will be followed and that he will not be confronted with subjective decisions, based only on guidance. The reversal of a decision makes a significant impact on a school, so we want to provide for the power to deliver a statutory framework.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

With respect, clause 49(6) clearly states: ''Regulations shall make provision'', which meets the hon. Gentleman's objections, but it is for the Government rather than me to respond.

Mr Peter Pike (Burnley, Labour)

Before I call Mr. Turner, let me make it clear that he is replying to the debate on amendment No. 145, which is the only amendment moved at this stage. Depending on what happens in the next few minutes, we can dispose of that amendment. Amendment No. 340 will be called. If Mr. Brady then wishes formally to move amendment No. 341, he can do so, but no further debate on it is allowed.

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight, Conservative)

I am grateful, Mr. Pike, for the clarification that we are debating amendment No. 145, but I would like to make some comments on the amendments grouped with it.

The Minister is at least right about being consistent. Previous legislation provided a skeleton and regulations put the flesh on it. With much of this Bill, we have removed most of the skeleton's bones and are left with a backbone in statute. The bones are the regulations and I am not sure where the flesh comes in—perhaps it does not come in at all. I sometimes get the impression that the Bill is sponsored by the Law Society, because it enables Ministers to change the law certainly every year and perhaps more frequently.

I realise that we tend to have an Education Act every year, but thankfully not all the Acts are as long as this measure. They are certainly not all as long as the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. The law that relates to exclusions has been in place, unamended, since well before that year, because the 1998 Act largely repeated law that was already in place.

When Ministers have the power to fiddle, the danger is that they will fiddle. They will change a word in the regulations here and another word in the guidance there. I am sure that they think that that is terribly important and achieves a major objective, because that is what they are there for, but the consequence will be litigation and uncertainty.

That is why I said that the Bill seems to be sponsored by the Law Society. Lawyers have an interest in finding out the absolute meaning of every fresh word that is introduced into legislation, whereas head teachers, governors, pupils and particularly parents have an interest in knowing where they stand and in legislation not changing as a result of constantly shifting interpretation because of the constant addition of a new word here and there.

Unlike last time, I have read the policy statement that the Minister kindly supplied. There are a few differences from what is going on at the moment, but I cannot see why it is necessary to make this shift in the way in which the legislation is implemented. However, that is the Government's wish. I shall not waste the Committee's time by pressing the amendment. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 340, in page 32, line 35, at end insert—

'(2A)No penalty shall be applied to the budget of a school as a consequence of a decision to exclude a pupil or pupils.'.

I shall be brief. This probing amendment is intended to elicit comments from Ministers on the question whether and to what extent decisions taken by head teachers to exclude pupils for whatever period should feed through to a financial implication for the school. Ministers will be aware of the financial penalties policy that was applied by the previous Secretary of State, now the Home Secretary, to schools that failed to meet exclusion targets that he had set rather arbitrarily.

The Government have chosen to row back from that policy and rightly so, because it had a damaging effect on schools, which felt that they could not exclude

pupils who rightly and reasonably should have been excluded. The fact that the Government chose to change tack, albeit rather belatedly, was welcome.

In the policy statement on the exclusion of pupils, which was helpfully circulated to Committee members, there is no comment on that aspect of the Government's desires and policy. This is a useful opportunity to ask Ministers to comment on how they see policy in that regard developing, whether they remain convinced that it was right to end their previous policy, and whether they will make a commitment that the current regime will continue. I said that I would be brief. I shall be interested to hear the Minister's remarks, and then I shall conclude.

Mr Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell, Conservative)

I, too, will be brief. As the Minister probably will have gathered, governors and head teachers regularly beat a path to my door to raise issues with me. Feelings on the issue run high among governors and head teachers. The impact of an exclusion decision, especially on a smaller school, can be to remove £3,000, £4,000 or £5,000 from its budget, which has a practical impact on a head teacher's disposable income after fixed costs have been taken into account. There is therefore a need to ensure that a school that takes the decision to reduce its roll by removing a pupil who has caused significant disruption does not end up financially disadvantaging other pupils during the rest of their time at that school.

The Government must ensure that a decision to exclude can be taken entirely on the facts of each case, and that the financial factors do not and cannot affect the decision or the school after a decision has been taken. I hope that if the Minister will not consider the amendment, he will seriously consider the principle of ensuring that exclusion decisions can be taken free from financial constraints or consequences.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

That is an important issue, but we must take account of the fact that we still have a responsibility to those children whom it is appropriate to exclude, even permanently, from school. In the past, children were often excluded permanently—

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

They were left to roam the streets.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

As the hon. Gentleman said, perhaps from his Burnley experiences, children were left to roam the streets, often with no socks—but we will not go into that.

That was the reality, and that is what happened under the Government supported by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West. That is not satisfactory for the young people concerned nor, equally importantly, for the communities in which they live. It creates all sorts of social problems. There is also a danger that the child is permanently excluded not only from school, but from society in the long term. The Government and society have a moral duty to ensure that even the most challenging and difficult young people, whom it is right to exclude from school because of their behaviour, have an education in another setting of the highest possible quality to give them the chance to get back on the right track and to have a decent life. The resources from the pot of money

to which the amendment refers are being used specifically to fund the pupil referral units that are working well, and which we hope will work even better in the future, to ensure that challenging young people with complex, multi-faceted problems get the quality education that they deserve. I therefore reject the amendment, because the resources would not be available to ensure that we give children who have been excluded permanently from schools access to high quality, full-time education in another setting.

The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West made a point about the Government's general attitude towards the interests of the individual child as against the interests of the school. The Government are clear that we must have a fair and balanced approach to that extremely difficult and sensitive issue. We have a responsibility to maximise educational opportunities for every child. Most head teachers accept that they must do everything in their power for the child, who may be experiencing serious problems at home. He or she may be part of a dysfunctional family or have psychological problems. The majority of classroom and head teachers do a tremendous amount to make things work within the school. We must actively support teachers and governing bodies, and encourage them to adopt that philosophy and set of values.

However, sometimes the behaviour of an individual is so unacceptable that there is no alternative to the professional judgment that the child must be withdrawn from the school or classroom. The effect of the child's behaviour on staff or other pupils is such that it cannot be tolerated: weighed in the balance, it is too destructive and negative.

Mr Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury, Conservative)

There is common ground on the difficult judgments that it is necessary to make. There is a point at which hard decisions must be made. Does the Minister not agree that, without the inclusion of the amendment, there is a potential perverse incentive to retain the child in the school, especially if school cash flows are taken into consideration? Much of the money for the child has already been spent by the time the decision is made, and the school's budget would be seriously affected if the money were taken away.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I sympathise to some extent with the hon. Gentleman's point. However, the money that is generated in that way is meant to help schools and LEAs deal specifically with the children who are the most disaffected and disengaged, and who are causing the most difficulty. There is no conclusive evidence that there is or is not a perverse incentive. Increasingly, the evidence suggests that head teachers and governing bodies try to make decisions that will achieve the balance that we have discussed.

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. His position is perfectly respectable, and I suggest that the Opposition press the amendment to a Division if they support it. However, I do not accept his view that the pot of money forces head teachers and governing bodies to follow a particular course of action. It is to

be used to ensure that difficult young people receive full-time education in an appropriate environment, and to tackle disengagement generally.

Mr Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

There were two different issues, and I was confused by the amendment. First, the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) had a target that schools had to meet for reducing the number of exclusions. If they did not achieve the target, they were penalised. Will the Minister confirm that that policy no longer exists? If so, that is fine.

I do not have a problem with the second issue, because the situation would be the same if a child moved from a school in other circumstances: the money must follow the child to the next school. Whether it comes belatedly as a retrospective payment is irrelevant. I agree with the Minister's response, but he has not answered the substantive point about whether the policy is now defunct. It would be useful for the Committee to have that on the record.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Education and Skills; Bury South, Labour)

I can confirm that the targets that were set by the former Secretary of State are no longer part of our policy. Those targets no longer exist. We take the view that we need a balanced approach. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West, Conservative)

I suppose that I should start by thanking the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough for bringing the Minister back to the one point that I had made in my opening remarks. The Minister can rest reasonably easy. I said that it was a probing amendment. In that context, it is reasonable for me to take unto myself the luxury of defining the terms. As my opening remarks suggested, the use of the term ''penalty'' was not intended to imply that this would affect the flow of funds, which naturally go with the pupil, but was a reference to the application of a penalty related to particular numbers of exclusions. Perhaps rather belatedly, the Minister confirmed that the targets no longer exist. We know that. I was seeking a slightly clearer and more forceful exposition of the view that the Government have reached that not just the targets, but the application of penalties in that regard was the wrong policy to follow and that this penalty regime would not re-emerge. Given that this was a probing amendment and we have had an assurance, albeit limited, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: No. 341, in page 33, line 5, at end insert—

'(e) outlining specific circumstances in which an appeal panel can over-rule an exclusion'.—[Mr. Brady.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 11.