Clause 4 - Arrangements for payments in respect of information
Social Security Fraud Bill [Lords]
11:15 am
Mr Jeff Rooker (Minister of State, Department of Social Security; Birmingham, Perry Barr, Labour)
I shall take advice on that, but table 3 does not show figures on bulk information inquiries. Hon. Members should separate the utilities as a parallel issue. We will take separate powers to ask for information from the utilities on abnormally high usage of gas, water and electricity, which will enable us to data match our records based on addresses. That power has nothing to do with individuals and does not relate to individuals, bank accounts and credit reference agencies. Also, the table does not contain the number of inquiries, but our estimate of individual inquiries related to people for whom we have reasonable grounds to believe that they have committed, are committing or are about to commit social security fraud. The two are separate.
The Government require various bodies to provide information—for example, VAT returns from Customs and Excise. The banks must give information to the Inland Revenue in bulk on interest paid on savings, but are not paid for that, and the utilities must provide information to the regulator. Since the 1940s, the DSS has had powers to require information from employers about their employees, and we do not pay for that. Fraud is theft from the taxpayers; businesses are taxpayers and we are trying to reduce their taxes and ensure that we do not waste public expenditure.
I do not want to upset anyone, but we know that the Tory party is the bankers' friend. I do not want to goad members of the committee into getting up and making their election hustings speeches, but Barclays, for example, has made a 42 per cent. increase in profits, with profits before tax of £3.5 billion. Our estimate of the cost of this measure for Barclays is about 75 minutes of profit. Other banks have reported huge increases in profits, which caused the Bankers Association to publish a special briefing defending what people might think to be excessive profits.
Even if banks made less generous profits, however, the arguments would still apply, as they apply to everyone else who gives the Government information. Organisations such as Companies House and the Inland Revenue give information to the Information Commissioner in the normal course of events. We do not seek to put extra burdens on those organisations, although there will be a cost. We are using our best endeavours to reduce the high levels of social security fraud without being oppressive or imposing onerous burdens; one can never eradicate such things, and keeping up to speed is a constant job. We are making only modest demands on those organisations and, when a company exists in business to provide information, it is only right that we should pay for that information when we obtain it.