Clause 3 - Conduct prohibited without a licence
Private Security Industry Bill [Lords]
4:30 pm
Mr Charles Clarke (Minister of State, Home Office; Norwich South, Labour)
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Winterton. My only concern about what you said is whether ``modest'' is too mild a term to describe what happened this morning, although the hon. Member for Southport (Mr. Fearn) spoke to his amendment in an admirably succinct manner.
This is an important amendment. The point that it raises was debated at length on Second Reading, and in the other place. The hon. Gentleman has raised a series of serious points with regard to the judgments that are made about what to include in the Bill. Many Members of all parties have concerns about the matter. Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends spoke about it on Second Reading, and I am delighted to have an opportunity to return to it.
The White Paper envisaged that in-house manned guards would be included in the licensing regime but, after lengthy and detailed consideration, we decided not to do that at this stage. We concluded that to require all in-house manned guards to undergo two vetting processes—by the employer and by the authority—could add a further burden of bureaucracy on to businesses. It would also have the effect of adding enormously to the already large number of people whom the authority will need to licence when it is up and running—the estimates range from between 300,000 and 350,000 people—and we felt that it was important to establish the authority and to clarify its aims without giving it such an enormous amount to bite off that it might make its task more daunting.
The Bill regulates some in-house staff, particularly door supervisors and wheel clampers. We focused on those particular groups because they can exercise considerable influence and power over people who might be young or vulnerable, or both. However, the White Paper generated substantial representations that led us to conclude that it was reasonable, at least for the time being, for companies to continue to satisfy themselves about the probity of their employees and potential employees. A distinction must be drawn between such situations and those in which services are provided under contract and the person hiring the services must place a greater degree of trust in the probity of the hired staff.
The hon. Gentleman raised questions about lines 40 to 42 of page 2. They are intended to refer to people who have engaged in contracts in the way that I have indicated. We are aware of arguments for their inclusion in the regulatory regime established by the Bill. As I noted earlier, we shared those views at the time of our White Paper. We understand the argument that has been advanced to the effect that not licensing in-house manned guards could lead to companies switching from contract staff to in-house staff because it will be cheaper and that that will, in turn, lead to deteriorating standards in those companies. That is a serious argument for including in-house staff.
I have no doubt that the Security Industry Authority will be receiving such arguments and that it will pay close attention to them as part of its general duty to keep the industry and the operation of legislation under review. The Government will listen carefully to arguments from the authority, and that is one of the reasons why we have structured the first part of the Bill as we have. It will ensure that such issues are kept under review. That is the reason for our balanced judgment. I acknowledge directly that real arguments are being advanced by the hon. Gentleman. It is not a specious point. It is a serious issue, as we said on Second Reading. Our judgment is that we should start the authority's operation by biting off what we can chew most effectively and then examine the situation as it moves forward to see how the operation needs to be developed. That is the reason for such a formulation.