Schedule 3 - Hunting with Dogs: Prohibition
Hunting Bill
4:45 pm
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough, Conservative)
I deliberately did not say hounds, because it often gives the impression of organised packs. I want the Committee to think not of organised hunts but of the working countryside; whether one uses hounds or dogs, everyone then knows what it means. In such a situation, we need our canine friends to cull the fox population humanely and effectively.
If we do not go down the route of introducing criminal sanctions, what can we do? A door is waiting open for the Government. Home Office circular 7/97 states:
The fixed penalty system is well established and enormously successful in diverting large numbers of criminal offences from the courts.
That is an appropriate response to situations in which it could not be seriously argued that those who break minor laws or who hunt with hounds should be treated as criminals and recidivists. We already have such a system. The Government rightly say that the courts should not be choked up with minor matters and that the fixed penalty systems should be used.
A more recent precedent for civil liberty penalties is the carrier liability legislation extended to lorry drivers under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, which provides for a new civil penalty of £2,000 per passenger. The most recent introduction of a new sort of penalty offence is in the Criminal Justice and Police Bill, which would give police officers the discretion to impose on-the-spot financial penalties for a range of anti-social offences associated with disorderly conduct. The explanatory notes to the Bill state that although the conduct in question is already criminal, the need to focus police and court resources elsewhere means that much minor offending of that type escapes sanction or other consequences at present. That Bill would provide a further means for the police to deal with low-level disruptive criminal behaviour. That was the Government's view then, so they cannot argue that alternatives do not exist.
I stress that hunting is an activity conducted in many ways by large numbers of people. It is not only a sport. As I have tried to explain by mentioning the comments of working gamekeepers, it is often a part of traditional working practices and pest control. I accept that Parliament has decided to ban organised hunts, but we should proceed only one step at a time. Before we drag people to court and impose criminal penalties, we should consider the alternatives.
The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) are germane to the argument. I stress that imposing a civil penalty would achieve what Parliament wants. It would stop the large organised hunts, but it would not result in working farmers, gamekeepers and others being hauled into court. We must remember that the most difficult aspect is that the police will not have to prove anything; it will be for the farmers and gamekeepers to prove their innocence. They will have to go to court and spend money to defend themselves. What happens in the countryside is a complex matter.
Once we have banned hunting, many people will be watching gamekeepers at work or following shoots. A recent paper from the League Against Cruel Sports attacks, in strong language, shooting—it encourages its members to oppose shooting. Its main argument for opposing shooting is not that it considers it to be a sport—I do not share that point of view, but I believe that it is morally wrong to shoot for pleasure—but that gamekeepers use their current practices to control and even to liquidate other wild species because they are a threat to the partridges and the pheasants. One of the league's principal arguments is directed against the National Gamekeepers Organisation.
I accept that that is not the Government's view. The Government have made it clear that they are not opposed to shooting and would not legislate against it, but once the Hunting Bill is enacted a national campaign against shooting will start immediately. It will be well run and well organised because shooting is a sport and because gamekeepers are encouraged to interfere in what is considered to be the natural habitat.
Gamekeepers and working farmers will be reported and brought to court, which will cause them much worry, fear, and expense. At the end of the day, they may not want to take the risk—maybe they will not, or maybe they will. A small working farmer might have to take the risk, as he simply could not afford to allow his livestock to face possible depredations by what he considers to be vermin.
The situation in the countryside will be unbelievably confused. It is incumbent on us, therefore, to tidy up this Bill and to try to make it work. I do not want the Bill in the first place, but let us at least make good law. Let us try to achieve the situation that my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury wants, so that, when these gamekeepers land up in court through no fault of their own, they will face a fine and not a criminal conviction that will hang over them for five years.