Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 6, line 22, leave out from `provision' to the end of line 24.

I am grateful for the birth condition report. I hope that we will have good news later on. Nigel is a nice name—despite its recent misuse in the Chamber by someone much more important than me.

The amendment has the simple purpose of removing the power of the Secretary of State to make different rules for seller's packs in different areas, properties, circumstances and so on—in other words, the amendment would prevent exemptions. It is pre-eminently a probing amendment that seeks to raise the issue of low-value, low-demand areas, which might be said to have dominated the Second Reading debate. The issue is obviously of considerable and understandable concern to several Labour Back Benchers. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) spoke about the problems of old mining homes that probably have a tiny paper value. Clearly, much pressure has been placed on the Minister behind the scenes to do something about the problem, but our sympathy is limited because it is of the Minister's own making. He is the first to admit that that situation raises all sorts of problems. Is one to draw lines on maps? Is one to use a particular value that may change? Is one to use a particular council tax band? That is a difficult conundrum for the Minister and his Department. It would be helpful if the Minister could give us just a teensy-weensy glimpse into the way in which his mind is working because, as before, we do not have the benefit of draft regulations to debate in Committee.

This problem, like so many others, is caused by the Government's desire to bash on regardless with imposing the seller's packs, with the force of law, in the teeth of opposition and criticism from a range of organisations and bodies. We take the view that if the seller's packs are to be obligatory, the Minister will have to look at exemptions. Sadly, the list of potential exemptions and exceptions to the Bill gets longer and longer, as the hon. Member for Bath and my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) have said. As matters advance, we discover more and more provisions that the Minister does not intend to impose and reasons why people should be exempted and excepted from them. However, it would be invidious to start drawing lines on maps or making similar distinctions. We take the view—expressed initially by my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon—that there could be a self-fulfilling prophecy whereby an extra stigma would be imposed on certain properties because of their exemption from the requirement for a seller's pack. We are talking about areas where there is already low demand, low values and possibly houses that have no real value at all. It would mean that a red line would be drawn around an area, and people would be told that they were not required to have a seller's pack—they would not even have that benefit.

Above all, it would be outrageous—I say this without having heard what the Minister has in mind—if he implicitly acknowledged the problems with seller's packs that we have continued to expound by making regulations saying that the packs should not apply in certain areas and for certain types of property. It would be even more outrageous if he thereby exempted large Labour-represented and controlled areas of the country from the so-called benefits of seller's packs, but left many other parts of the country subject to the full requirements of the legislation.

As I said, it is difficult to guess which way the Minister will jump on the issue. He has accepted that he must do something or he will have a major Back-Bench rebellion on his hands, but he has also spotted all the potential problems and difficulties. To use that much over-used phrase, the devil will be in the detail. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

Mr Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

I am delighted that the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) moved the amendment to give us an opportunity to debate an issue about which, as he rightly pointed out, a number of the Minister's hon. Friends raised considerable concerns on Second Reading. The hon. Gentleman will be aware, as you are, Mr. Gale, that we have had an opportunity to touch on the issue on several occasions during our deliberations, but I want to draw the Committee's and particularly the Minister's attention to a letter that I recently received from Knight Frank, a major firm of estate agents. It raises what is almost the opposite end of the problem, and I would be grateful for the Minister's comments. That firm wonders whether the requirement for a seller's pack should be applied to very large properties. It proposes that any property with two or more acres should be excluded from the Bill, although I have not tabled an amendment to that effect. If the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Eastbourne were accepted, it would prevent any opportunity for the Minister to take that proposal into account in the regulations.

In the letter, Knight Frank makes the point that the burden on farmers and smallholders selling large properties would be huge, because the costs of preparing a seller's pack and condition report for such a property would be proportionately much higher, bearing in mind rights of way, easements, additional buildings and so on.

I suspect that the Minister will say that all that information would have to be obtained during a sale anyway and that there may well be advantages—the same advantages for which he has argued strenuously in the case of all other properties—in providing it in a seller's pack. However, as Knight Frank and other organisations have contacted me with concerns about the impact of the clause on people seeking to sell large properties, the Minister might like to comment on those concerns.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I am pleased that the hon. Member for Eastbourne stressed at the outset that this is a probing amendment, even though towards the end of his comments he appeared to be rather more enthusiastic about pursuing it. The amendment would make completely impossible something for which he argued strongly at an earlier stage in the proceedings, which is that newly built properties should not require a home condition report. We were entirely happy to accept that newly built properties, with the benefit of a warranty such as that provided by the National House Building Council or Zurich, provide the protection necessary for the buyer, thereby avoiding the requirement for a separate home condition report. That common-sense solution would not be possible if this amendment were to be accepted.

The provision enables us, if necessary, to make special provisions for particular categories of properties. I have already talked about properties that are being built or those which are newly completed. As I have stressed in earlier debates, the issue of low-value properties, which has been raised by hon. Members, is a difficult one. It is not our intention to undermine the benefits of the seller's packs by making widespread exemptions, but there are genuine concerns where the requirement to produce a seller's pack might be disproportionate in the case of extremely low-value properties.

Mr Tim Loughton (East Worthing & Shoreham, Conservative)

The Minister said that it might be possible to exempt extremely low-value properties. Will he quantify that in terms of defining a benchmark?

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

In case anyone believes that we are considering widespread exemptions that would cover a large number of properties, I should make it clear that I have previously indicated that around £10,000 might be the order of magnitude we have in mind. We are thinking about circumstances where the requirement to produce a seller's pack might be a deterrent to putting a property on the market. In most cases, we believe that the seller's pack will help to clarify the condition of the property and improve the workings of the market so, even in low-value areas, it might help to ensure that home owners are able to sell their properties. However, some hon. Members have highlighted the fear that, in some circumstances, the requirement to produce a seller's pack might act as a deterrent to putting a property on the market. We do not want that to happen so we have said that we will undertake detailed consultation before making any final decision.

We are sympathetic in principle and we are cautious about the application of exemptions because, as has been said, they could have the perverse effect of stigmatising property. Therefore, if we decide to propose any exemptions, they will be limited and tailored to specific circumstances rather than having a more general application. I cannot give any specific indications because we have undertaken to consult in detail with all the interested parties—professional bodies, local authorities and others, including right hon. and hon. Members—and it would be wrong for me to try to anticipate the outcome of those consultations. I have already said that we intend to apply an exemption to newly built properties that benefit from warranties provided by NHBC, Zurich or other insurance companies, and if we propose any other exemptions, they will be subject to full parliamentary scrutiny.

The issue of larger homes was raised by the hon. Member for Bath. He evoked a rather touching image of Knight Frank, a company whose image is not associated with smallholders coping on a pittance with impoverished farm land and small properties. That may be the image it is trying to cultivate, but this is really a lobby in favour of those with large properties—two acres of more—on which the partners of Knight Frank are no doubt delighted to receive instructions. The information required for a seller's pack is information that would always be obtained. People purchasing large and complicated properties will want all the information and will almost certainly commission a full structural survey rather than just relying on the house condition report. Nevertheless, that report is helpful because it will give useful information and say whether a full structural survey is necessary. An exemption would not be of any practical use or benefit to people in those circumstances. Therefore, the only case for an exemption is where a property is part of a commercial enterprise, for example, a farm. That is the answer to the hon. Gentleman's genuine concern for poor smallholders in financial difficulties, but the wider issue is not meritorious.

Mr Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

The hon. Gentleman gives the answer that I was expecting. I am grateful for his clarification about the smallholding. For the record, will the Minister comment briefly on the case of a farm that is being sold which comprises a large number of outbuildings, the condition of which will, presumably, not have to be studied in the same depth as properties in which people will live? The buyer will want a great deal of information on the condition of such farm buildings, but will they be excluded from the detailed condition survey?

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

Where a sale involves farm premises, which are all part of the farm enterprise, they will be exempt. If, however, a farmer possesses residential property and chooses to sell it independently with vacant possession, the normal requirements will apply. If it is part of the farm enterprise, it will be exempt. For those reasons, the amendment is not just unnecessary but unhelpful, and I hope the hon. Member will withdraw it.

Mr Tim Loughton (East Worthing & Shoreham, Conservative)

The Minister's point about exemptions on new properties being detrimental is well taken. We debated that earlier, which is why my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne said that this was a probing amendment.

Before fashioning the legislation and putting it before the House, did the Government properly assess the scale of the problem posed by properties at the lower-end of the market? On Second Reading we heard from many Labour Members, in particular, the hon. Members for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) and for Burnley (Mr. Pike). The hon. Member for Burnley said that his constituency has more than 3,000 empty properties and the bottom has fallen out of the lower end of the market. The hon. Gentleman would maintain that a good portion, if not all, of those 3,000 properties may be valued at less than £10,000, and the same is true of many properties in other former mining areas.

Last year, 660,000 private residential sales—more than 40 per cent. of all private residential sales in this country—were sold for less than £60,000, and so did not attract any stamp duty. That is large portion of the market, and many of those 660,000 may have been below the imaginary £10,000 threshold. Given the potential size of the problem, and the stigma of whatever exemption the hon. Gentleman may be considering, the matter should have been thought about long before the legislation came before the House. It is not a new phenomenon. It is not as though the property market has suddenly gone down; if anything, it has moved up. Certain metropolitan boroughs, particularly in the north of England, suffer from a lot of low value property.

The Minister has ruled out broad-brush council band A proscribing, as recommended by his hon. Friend the Member for Workington, which is probably right. Surely whatever solution he eventually comes up with, however soon that is after all the detailed work that we are told that went into fashioning the proposals, must lead to a degree of blight on the classification of those properties, which will fall below the threshold, however, he qualifies that.

All the other exemptions to which we have referred—between family and friends, for commercial property, or whatever—are for perfectly good reasons, and do not reflect on the integrity of the property or the area in which it is located. The provisions will lead to a degree of postcode blighting, which will simply reinforce the Opposition's view that the proposals are ill-thought out and have been rushed through. A large segment of the market will be detrimentally effected in terms of cost, but if they are not included within the scheme, they will be blighted and the implications that that will have on the values of their properties will be an even greater cost. Few of those involved will be inclined, or indeed able, to bring their properties to the market and attain a decent price for them. As my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne said, this goes to the heart of the legislation's inconsistencies and flaws. I hope that the Minister will not underestimate the scale of the problem, given the number of low-value properties in this country, to which I have referred.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I wish to probe the Minister on a different point. It may be in order under this amendment, but if may be more in order under amendment 29.

What standard is required of seller's packs? I understand that the Bill does not alter the dictum of caveat emptor, and it would be up to the purchaser or his solicitors, or advisers to check the content, accuracy and completeness of the seller's pack. To what standard is the vendor expected to produce the pack? In normal property transactions, purchasers make a number of inquiries and, having considered them, will make further requisitions and inquiries, until they are fully satisfied that they understand all the variations of a particular property. It is impossible for a vendor to imagine precisely what a purchaser might want when he is producing the seller's pack. This area will give rise to huge arguments, and perhaps litigation, in the future. I wonder whether the Minister can give us some idea of the standard to which these reports are expected to be produced.

The Chairman: Order. It is inevitable in discussions of complex matters such as these that there is an overlap of material. My view is that those comments relate more to matters arising under amendment No. 29. However, if the Minister wishes to deal with them now, he may do so. If he chooses to wait until the broader issues that arise under amendment No. 29, I am sure that the Committee will understand.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

On a point of order, Mr. Gale. It may be more convenient for the Minister to reflect on this matter and see whether further thoughts come into his head. Perhaps we should deal with it under the later amendment.

Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)

I allowed the hon. Gentleman to complete his remarks because, having got halfway through them, it seemed sensible to put them on the record.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

It will probably be easier to deal with that issue when we are discussing the content of the home condition report. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we have given some detailed thought to this matter and have had a thorough briefing. I do not need any further reflection or to wait for further ideas to come into my head. As hon. Members can see, I have with me some extremely detailed work that has already been prepared. I will be happy to share it with the hon. Gentleman later.

I can tell the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham that we had anticipated the low-value problem. We commissioned research in Burnley and Bradford to test the views of buyers, sellers and professionals involved in the process in two defined low-value areas. The research showed that the buyers, sellers and professionals thought that there home condition reports were relevant and had some use in low-value areas. As I have said many times, someone buying a low-value property has most to lose if it requires an unforeseen and expensive repair that might cost more than the total value of the property. For that reason, we are reluctant to make widespread exemptions.

The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham seems to have confused two different concepts. He confused the limit for stamp duty payments of £60,000 with a definition of low value. There is no question of us adopting the figure that he mentioned—a £60,000 limit—as a definition of low value. This point was made forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley, who said that he had come into the debate thinking that a band A council tax level might be appropriate but had reflected and realised that it would go too wide. It is certainly not our intention to cover anywhere like that number of properties.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I do not wish in any way to be rude to the Minister. I should like, for the third time, to raise a point that I made in an intervention on Second Reading and in Committee. Inevitably, parts of the seller's packs will be time limited. Despite what the Minister has said in the past, there will have to be a time limit on the survey. There will be probably be a time limit on the local authority searches and the pre-contract inquires. It is the low-value properties that will perhaps take longer to sell. If the whole of, or part of a seller's pack needs to be redone, that will incur additional costs. The burden, therefore, could potentially be greater on low-value properties than on higher-value properties. I should be grateful if the Minister would consider that point seriously and let the Committee know his intentions.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

The fact that there might be special difficulties in disposing of properties in some extremely low-value areas was debated at length. Having visited areas such as Warsop Vale and Bassetlaw, I readily conceded that I could see the problem. The problem is that the market has collapsed and there is no demand in those areas—not that the prospect of the seller's pack was creating a difficulty. I could see that problem, which is why I was prepared to consider this exemption. The hon. Gentleman knows from his knowledge and understanding of these issues that market conditions ultimately determine the speed at which a property sells. During the recession which was created by the former Government in 1990-91, properties did not sell because of the market. It did not matter whether they were high, medium or low value. Our objective is to ensure a healthy market in which properties will sell timeously.

May I say to the hon. Member for Loughton—I am sorry.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

The hon. Gentleman is not an Essex man.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I apologise, Mr. Gale. I was carried away by my tour around the country and I inevitably came to Essex. I can see that interesting county when I look across the Thames from own patch in south-east London. When I walk along the Thames and see the other bank—Essex is there.

I must apologise to the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham and return to his point, which is that a large segment of the market could be affected. I want to stress that we are talking not of the kind of exemptions that would affect a large segment but of exceptional circumstances, with exceptionally low-value properties, where there could be a problem. There would be no question of postcode blighting, because we would not be adopting such criteria. In circumstances where there are very special problems, we are prepared to give further thought to the matter, as I undertook to do on Second Reading.

I hope that that answers hon. Members' questions and reassures the Committee that this is an entirely sensible and consistent approach which we have adopted all the way through to ensure that the benefits of the seller's pack are widely available. We will not apply it in such a rigid way that a seller's pack is required in circumstances where would be inappropriate, for example, new properties covered by warranties or special circumstances in areas of exceptionally low value, where an exemption might be justified. We will consult fully before final decisions are taken on the latter point.

I hope that Opposition Members are satisfied and will agree to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

The Committees' debates will be enlivened by the arrival of the Under-Secretary with responsibility for aviation, the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin). I am grateful for what the Minister for Housing and Planning said. I made it clear at the outset that this was a probing amendment, and indeed it is. I take on board his point about new properties and the National House Building Council or Zurich schemes. The Minister has ruled out the band A option in terms of low-value, low-demand areas, and has pinned his colours to a maximum value of £10,000 for a property. We still think that that will lead to anomalies and problems. It is an arbitrary, suspiciously round figure. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is waving his hand around, which makes me wonder whether I have misrepresented him.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I have made this crystal clear time and again. That is not a figure that we propose. I gave it simply to show what we were looking at, because other, wildly different figures were being bandied around. I would urge the hon. Gentleman not to treat this as a figure cast in stone. It is not a proposal. It is simply an indication, to be helpful to the Committee, of the territory that we are exploring.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. He says that it is not set in stone; it is part of the shifting sands on which this unfortunate edifice is based. It remains to be seen whether his attempts to talk down the extent of properties that can be exempted will chime in with the requirements of Labour Back Benchers. We shall soon find out. Whether it is £5,000, £10,000 or £20,000, whatever figure the Minister eventually settles on, it will be arbitrary. There will be unfairness and problems with the up-to-date nature of valuations. As he accurately said, what we are mainly talking about is properties that have no value, or indeed have a negative value when one tots up the cost of repairs and maintenance, where the market has collapsed.

The Minister has not entirely addressed the stigma argument. He has ruled out postcode blight of the sort expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham, and that is right. However, an element of stigma will be attached to these properties if the Department or the Minister decides that their value is £10,000 or less. That in itself will set them out as different from other properties.

The Minister overstated the conclusions of the report into Burnley and Bradford, and the enthusiasm that engendered for the seller's packs. However, these are all useful issues. Like so much in the Bill, this is a continually moving target. On that basis alone, I beg to ask leave of the Committee to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)

We are all aware of the pressures on Members of Parliament, and know that life goes on outside the Committee Room as well as inside it and that hon. Members from time to time have to leave. I gently remind all hon. Members that if they arrive to raise points of information, or to question a Minister, custom and courtesy dictate that here, as on the Floor of the House, they should be present to hear the reply.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 6, line 24, at end add—

`(9) All the documents and information contained in the sellers' packs shall be confidential to the seller, a person acting on his behalf as an estate agent, and any bona fide buyer or potential buyer.'.

The amendment would add new subsection (9) to clause 7, dealing with the vexed issue of confidentiality. It would make clear that a seller's pack will be confidential to the seller, a person acting on his behalf as an estate agent and any bona fide buyer or potential buyer.

We touched on that issue last week. In that context, the Minister accepted that it is a defence under the Bill for a seller to refuse a seller's pack in certain circumstances. The seller may consider that a potential buyer does not have the money or is not the sort of person to whom he would like to sell. On the other hand, he may charge a reasonable amount. We went around that course and did not reach a conclusion. We debated the issue of celebrities selling high-value properties and requiring people to pay a substantial fee before they could view them or before they could have a seller's pack.

This is a probing amendment. The Minister will almost certainly talk about difficulties of enforcement, a point that the Law Society made to me, and of definition. The lender is encouraged to rely on a home condition report, but is the seller entitled to some confidentiality in respect of the report? We think it important that a potential seller has some protection and privacy, particularly on the HCR, and that only those with a genuine interest in seeing a report should do so.

The Minister has already accepted that principle in a different context. It would be helpful to have his assurance that he accepts the principle in this context, and that he will seek appropriate safeguards to ensure the same result. No one wants seller's packs to be available to all and sundry, particularly in the age of the photocopier. What regulations are already in place to control access to the information in reports stored on computers? Perhaps the Minister will say that I am excessively apprehensive about the way in which people behave. I touched on what I call the Madonna example in a different context. People in the public eye, perhaps even the Minister, are entitled to filter out idle viewers of their property or, at the other end of the scale, potential stalkers, to protect their privacy.

More seriously, there is also a potential for burglars and terrorists to get their hands on the reports. The existence of a viable burglar alarm system may be covered in the HCR. That could prove to be of great interest to a potential criminal. Terrorists, as we know, are ingenious in finding out information about the homes of their potential targets. As we approach the election period, political opponents may be interested in getting their hands on a seller's pack for a Member's or political candidate's home.

Mr Tim Loughton (East Worthing & Shoreham, Conservative)

Or homes.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

Yes. I appreciate that, in the case of some Ministers, that may require a lot of homework—for some five or more homes.

Mr Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

The hon. Gentleman is right. There is a serious point to the probing amendment. Has he reflected on the ownership of the seller's pack and the issues of copyright relating to its contents? Who has the copyright of the home condition report? Who has ownership of the information provided by local authorities as a result of searches? The issue is even more complicated that the hon. Gentleman said.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. To be honest, I have not considered the copyright implications. I am not sure whether copyright does or could apply to the seller's pack. The Minister will undoubtedly receive notes on the subject, so he can enlighten us. I should have thought that there was an argument about copyright attaching to the surveyor who carries out the home condition report, at least until he is paid.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

Client confidentiality.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

My hon. Friend mentions the main point—confidentiality. There is also the related issue of privity—lawyers refer to privity of contract when a buyer commissions a surveyor and the passing of payment is based on the contractual relationship—which makes it difficult under existing law for someone else to sue on the basis of a mistake in the survey or home condition report. That may be an issue for debate on another occasion.

I have the impression that the Committee shares a common concern about confidentiality. The seller's packs containing much detailed information about a given property may be circulated freely, but they could be used by people who are evilly disposed. We must deal with that important issue. At the other end of the scale is the problem of time-wasters—people who have neither the intention nor the means to buy a particular property—asking for seller's packs and insisting on their rights. To some extent, the Bill already deals with the problem under the defences in clause 6, but I should like to hear what the Minister has to say. He would, I am sure, accept the need for confidentiality and I am open to suggestions about approaching the problem in a different way.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I raised that matter during the afternoon sitting on 18 January when I intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne and said:

The seller's pack contains a lot of private information, particularly at the more expensive end of the market. I wonder whether my hon. Friend has considered the fact that the seller, or indeed the buyer, might not want such information to be generally available to a lot of other people. How will that impinge on these defences? It could be a defence for a seller to say, ``I only want one or two people to have the seller's pack. I don't want it to go to those who I believe are not genuine purchasers''.— [Official Report, Standing Committee D, 18 January 2001; c. 144.]

We need to probe the Minister on the defences. It is a tangled approach to have to rely on a defence for something that is common sense. As I said to my hon. Friend, all professionals acting for a client owe him a duty of care and of confidentiality. How will the Bill change that? Certain information would not usually be imparted to a purchaser—precisely for reasons of confidentiality—until fairly late in the negotiations, when one could be almost certain that the transaction was likely to go through.

The Minister should explain how the amendment relates to the defences under clause 6(3)(a) to (c), which refer to a person who

was unlikely to have sufficient means to buy the property in question... was not genuinely interested in buying a property of a general description which applies to the property... or was not a person to whom the seller was likely to be prepared to sell the property.

We need to probe those three defences carefully to ascertain the circumstances in which the seller can withhold information. Can he withhold partial information? Would it not be reasonable to withhold from the home condition survey information about security? Another example might be information in a local authority survey about people who had previously bought the house and at what price. There could be many reasons why such information should not be generally available.

In my experience of the property market, a certain class of people—particularly at the more expensive end of the market—will intentionally not put their property on the market because they do not want too much information to be made generally available. In some circumstances, they are prepared to accept a lower price on the basis that an agent will put their property to only one or two people who he knows are genuinely in the market, and on condition that confidential information will not be made generally available. How will the Bill impinge on that sort of marketing? I shall be grateful for the Minister's comments.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

We recognise that there are circumstances in which a seller, perfectly justifiably, would not want information about his property to be disclosed to anyone who is not naturally and correctly involved in the house buying and selling process. We believe that those interests are already covered adequately in the Bill. The amendments would result in a series of unfortunate consequences. I hope that when the hon. Member for Eastbourne thinks about it a little more, he will recognise that the amendments are undesirable and should be withdrawn.

As I mentioned on the afternoon of 18 January, clause 6(3) enables sellers to refuse to show the seller's pack to someone who they believe cannot buy or is not genuinely interested in buying the property, or to whom they would not wish to sell. I pointed out that that complies with anti-discrimination and human rights legislation. It is an important safeguard and we believe that it is the right way forward. However, there is unlikely to be anything in the seller's pack that would cause problems if disclosed to parties other than those directly involved in the transaction.

The hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) raised two issues. Security systems will not be part of the requirement for disclosure in the seller's pack, as they are not part of the structure of the building but are incorporated into it. The presence of bars to be drawn across a window would probably be covered, but disclosure of that would not cause any anxiety, whereas disclosing the presence of an electronic security system might. The other issue he mentioned was price. He will be aware that price information is publicly available and is obtainable via the Land Registry, so confidentiality cannot be secured.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I must probe the Minister a little more about security. Some houses have fairly sophisticated safes that were built into the property at the time of its construction. Security is an important issue. The Minister dismisses my point about price, but local authority searches can make available more than price information; they may list previous owners, who might not want to have their names generally linked with a particular property.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

If a report simply states that a safe is built into the property, I am not sure that making such information available would be prejudicial. If the combination lock were revealed, it would be a different matter, but we certainly do not intend that to happen. Indeed, there might be a beneficial effect if the fact that a building was secure were in the public domain: it might put off the likes of Kenneth Noye or others who might use a seller's pack as a means of casing a joint. I am not convinced by the hon. Gentleman's argument. On the issue of price, I have already made the point that it is already public information that is available through the Land Registry. There is a general move away from a culture of unnecessary secrecy and toward greater transparency and wider availability of information. One example is that information about the price paid for homes in previous transactions is now publicly available from the Land Registry.

The amendment would be harmful to consumer interests. It would expose the potential buyer to the risk of breaking the confidentiality provision if he wanted to discuss with a friend or colleague whether, in the light of the contents of the seller's pack, the property was worth the price that he was thinking of paying for it. It does not seem sensible to prevent someone from having such a discussion, especially if the friend or colleague has expertise in the market.

The amendment would have very undesirable consequences. The hon. Member for Eastbourne readily accepts that lenders might have an interest in the information. We intend that lenders should be able to rely on the home condition report; to refuse under confidentiality provisions to let them have access to it would be wholly counter-productive. Lenders will be bound by procedures to ensure that such information is not disclosed more widely, but they should have access to it. The amendment is not helpful as it would have unfortunate and unforeseen consequences.

The hon. Members for Eastbourne, for Bath and for Cotswold raised some specific issues to which I shall respond. No change is proposed in the position on copyright; we shall simply retain the existing copyright provisions in respect of home condition reports. The hon. Member for Eastbourne mentioned privity; the Contracts (Rights and Third Parties) Act 1999 established that third parties have a right to that information, which is fundamental if lenders are to rely on those reports, and rightly so. Therefore, there is no problem in that respect. I have already answered the hon. Member for Cotswold's questions about security and price.

The amendment is unnecessary as the confidentiality issue is already well covered. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

If the Minister thinks that my amendment is unhelpful, the bottom has fallen out of my world, but I shall soldier on none the less. It is curious that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, including the Minister, agree that only people with a proper interest should have access to seller's packs. Apart from the fact that some parts of the pack are slightly odd, the existing defences do not go far enough to deal with the matter. There are concerns about confidentiality, which we have little doubt will be borne out in practice.

I am sorry that the Minister is not prepared to reconsider the amendment. Nevertheless, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 29, in clause 7, page 6, line 24, at end add—

`(8A) The regulations may specify that a property may be marketed with an incomplete pack in circumstances where reasonable efforts have been made to gather the missing information.'.

The amendment is a blatant attempt to widen the defences available to hapless and otherwise law-abiding citizens who fall foul of the measure. The amendment would make it possible under regulations to continue to market a property that had an incomplete pack if reasonable efforts had been made to gather the missing information.

Last week, we discussed what would happen if there were a delay in obtaining certain documents or if documents never showed up, thus delaying the process. The pertinent example used time and again was of damp-proofing and other guarantees, which may, in any event, be academic because the company that did the work has gone out of business so the guarantee, even if it can be found, is not worth the paper it is written on. We want to go further: when the seller has made reasonable efforts to obtain the documents, he should be exempted from liability and marketing should go ahead.

In support of the amendment, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors stated that

the marketing of properties with an incomplete pack should be allowed only if it is clearly the case that the agent/provider has been unable to gain the information that they have sought,

adding that

Strict controls will be required to prevent abuse.

I agree. Whatever the Minister may think, the official Opposition are not in the business of providing routes in the Bill through which coaches and horses can be driven, which is why the regulations would have to be specific. RICS made the sensible suggestion that there should be a definition of core and non-core information. There is a case for the Bill or the regulations being clearer about peripheral papers that are not particularly important, and which may not be found despite all reasonable efforts being made. Sometimes, a seller makes every possible effort to assemble a pack, but cannot complete it because, for example, some deeds or parts of deeds have been lost. The Law Society stated that it was common for details of an old covenant referred to in the deeds to be lost, and that it would be unfair to penalise a seller who, through no fault of his own, could not produce all the documentation. We endorse that view.

Some matters cannot be dealt with satisfactorily by producing documentation at any time in the transaction. For example, when I bought a new home in my constituency a year ago, there was a detailed discussion between solicitors about a right of way across the access to the property. The seller's solicitors could not produce an unbroken line of people to give evidence that they had used that right of way without hindrance for a number of years. I was required to take out an insurance policy against future problems—something that I believe is common in such situations—and the difficulty was resolved for a modest premium. Such matters often arise, especially with older properties. The Minister must understand the logic of not further delaying a process that will, in any event, be held up at the start by compulsory seller's packs.

This is a sensible, probing amendment. ``Reasonable efforts'' has a track record as a legal definition; alternatives would be ``best endeavours'' or ``reasonable endeavours''. I shall be interested in what the Minister has to say on the subject.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

The hon. Member for Eastbourne described his proposal as a blatant attempt to widen defences, but then slightly rode back from that position. There is no need for his blatant attempt because we are entirely satisfied that the regulations will provide exactly the defence that he wants: when a seller, or a seller's agent, has, in good faith, assembled all the material that can be assembled and is prevented from including in the pack one or more items because they are not available in time, he will not be prevented from proceeding to market the property. The seller and his agent must use their best endeavours to obtain the information subsequently, but, as discussed in a previous sitting, some documents will never become available, even if it is desirable to find them.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned core and non-core information, which is an interesting concept, but it would not be helpful to incorporate it in the Bill or in regulations. It would be unduly restrictive to prevent marketing from taking place if core information were not available at the time that marketing should begin.

The hon. Gentleman quoted RICS, which was closely involved in our discussions. That body is happy for the matter to be dealt with in the regulations that the Secretary of State is empowered to make. We are minded to use that power to enable properties to be marketed with an incomplete seller's pack when, through no fault of the seller or his agent, one or more of the prescribed documents are not available or cannot be supplied within a reasonable period. In such cases, the missing item or items will be required to be indicated in the seller's pack and inserted when and if they become available.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

There is a problem in the Land Registry. Under voluntary registration arrangements, owners of properties that are not currently registered have the option to apply for registry; compulsory registrations are those that must take place when a property is sold. They are being put on hold because the Land Registry cannot cope with the amount of work. I understand that the Bill will not come into operation for two years, but if a substantial number of properties have still not been registered under the new system at the Land Registry, that could make it much more difficult to provide local authority searches on time to put properties on the market where they are not registered. Will the Minister address that problem or at least give the Committee an idea of when he expects all houses in England to be registered?

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman has made a fair and good point and I undertake to look into the matter and write to him. It is certainly our wish that the Land Registry should be operating as efficiently and smoothly as possible as soon as possible to provide the swift and seamless service that we want to be available for quick clarification of the information required for searches. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Member for Eastbourne will agree to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 36, in page 6, line 24, at end add—

`( ) Before making regulations for the purposes described in subsection (1) the Secretary of State shall consult with representatives of those bodies likely to have an interest in or be affected by the proposals.'.

I am afraid that the amendment will require a more substantial debate than we have had on others, Mr. Gale, but I do not see myself seeking to catch your eye for any stand part debate on clause 7. I hope that that is helpful.

On the face of it, the amendment may seem rather innocuous, but it raises serious and worrying issues. It makes the eminently reasonable point that, before making any regulations under subsection (1),

the Secretary of State shall consult with representatives of those bodies likely to have an interest in or be affected by the proposals.

We hope that the Secretary of State would be willing to do that in any event. We are entering uncharted waters with the legislation, so it is important that, when considering any regulations to be published in due course, the Secretary of State has access to the best possible advice from those in the property-selling field and that those regulations have their full confidence. Many concerns have been expressed to my hon. Friends and me about aspects of the Bill and we are doing our best to raise them as we go along. Even if the Minister is not willing to accept our amendments, I hope that his advisers will take on board at least some of the comments when considering the draft regulations.

We have received quite a lot of advice from certain organisations—I am not saying that others are not properly involved. The Law Society, the Council of Mortgage Lenders, the National Association of Estate Agents and the Independent Association of Estate Agents are only major examples of groups that have made representations. I think that we have all seen releases and briefings from the CML in particular.

It is important that three groups of professionals are fully signed up to the proposals. One group is the Law Society, whose comments and reservations I have quoted on several occasions, including Second Reading; I do not see the need to do so again. The society is deeply concerned about some aspects of the Bill and has made a number of criticisms of the Bristol pilot scheme as relied on by the Government as a basis—we would say an unsound one—for the legislation.

Another group is, of course, estate agents. It is fair to say that the NAEA is broadly in favour of many of the Government's proposals, but it has concerns and they have been expressed in our debates. Indeed, a number of estate agents have concerns. I remember addressing a year or so ago the annual meeting of the Team group of estate agents, which has serious reservations and is very concerned about the effect of the Bill on their profession. With estate agents, I shall group surveyors, who of course also have a view on the legislation. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors in particular has been helpful in proposing amendments and making comments.

The third big group that must sign up to the legislation if it is to stand any chance of success is the mortgage lenders and particularly the CML, which represents more than 98 per cent. of the mortgage-lending sector. Its press release of November 2000 was scathing, saying that:

the evidence in support of introducing Sellers Information Packs (SIPs) is not robust and such packs could lead to increased costs for consumers. The CML does not believe that the pilot of...SIPs has proven the case for change, and that the Government should not commit to new legislation to make SIPs compulsory at this stage.

It went on to express concern about the size of the Bristol pilot and to talk about

a significant fall in the number of property transactions as sellers will be put off `testing' the market.

That is a concern expressed by others who have been in touch with us. The press release quotes the CML director general, Mr. Michael Coogan, as saying

the evidence in support of introducing Sellers Information Packs is not robust and such packs could prove to be unpopular with consumers. The Bristol pilot has failed to demonstrate that SIPs significantly improve the process and that there is widespread support from the professionals in the process.

That constitutes a far from clear expression of support by the CML for the proposals.

All members of the Committee have probably recently received the CML briefing paper setting out its concerns, for example, about the need for lenders to be able to rely on the home condition report and asking whether they have comments on the certification process—a matter to which I may return on another occasion. It is interesting that as recently as December, when the Minister attended its annual conference, members of the CML expressed major worries and opposition to the legislation. Originally, the CML strongly and publicly opposed the Government's proposals to use criminal sanctions to impose the so-called seller's packs on house sellers. As I have said, it also expressed concerns about the Bristol pilot.

Through the good offices of Money Marketing, I have obtained a copy of an internal CML document in which director general Michael Coogan reports, referring to the meeting on 23 November 2000, that

the Executive Committee gave a firm steer that the CML should issue a critical press release on 24 November—

probably the one from which I quoted—

highlighting lenders' concerns about the introduction of SIPs and the (lack of) robustness of the findings from the Bristol Pilot... CML's position was widely covered in the press and CML's views were further emphasised in a second press release issued on 4 December (after the Minister spoke to the Annual Conference that day...)

However, he goes on to say that:

Feedback from the DETR has confirmed that both the Minister and officials are very unhappy at the CML's view that the Bristol Pilot did not present a compelling case for the introduction of SIPs.

I see the Minister nodding. The internal document continues:

Even if there is an early General Election, the current expectation is that the Bill's progress will be completed by April/May. It will, in our estimation, be very difficult to create sufficient support to oppose the Bill successfully in Parliament—

the CML is aware of the efforts of the official Opposition to expose what we regard as the major shortcomings of the legislation—

and strong opposition continuing along the lines of recent releases could damage the CML's working relationship with officials on a number of fronts... However, as expected, the DETR is pressing lenders not to charge for the valuation service in the future (an aspect I responded to negatively in my speech at the Conference last week).

As an appetiser for what comes next, Mr. Coogan says that

The CML will be represented on the HCR working group.

In the light of what he then says, we might regard that as an attempt to buy off the opposition of that important organisation, for the document continues:

However, the Minister will not change direction. It is highly likely that any action taken to prevent the Bill being passed would be fruitless, and only serve to hinder productive work aimed at securing the best possible operating environment for lenders. Now that a legislative slot has been confirmed, some lenders have already indicated that they are stepping-up their work on exploring how they can gain advantage from the proposals.

That is a clear invitation to the CML to haul up the white flag in the face of pressure from Ministers and officials. Mr. Coogan concludes:

Executive Committee members are therefore asked to confirm that they support the CML now working closely with Government officials, behind the scenes, in shaping the framework of both the HCR and the certification process to ensure that the most favourable operating environment for lenders is secured. In particular—

this is the punch line—

in light of recent developments, the Committee's views are sought on the CML taking a less high profile and critical approach to the SIP proposal as the Bill progresses through Parliament.

Mr Chris Mullin (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Sunderland South, Labour)

Very sensible.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

The Minister—the one with the third-class law degree—says that that is very sensible, but I do not agree, nor do I think that it is very democratic. It is obvious what has been going on: the CML, which represents more than 98 per cent. of the mortgage-lending sector, has been got at by Ministers or their officials. It has been persuaded that it is not in its commercial interests to continue a high-profile campaign against the legislation. All the talk about working ``behind the scenes'' and adopting a ``less high profile and critical approach'' to the SIP proposal, reflects the CML's recognition of the fact that Ministers are determined to bash on regardless of any opposition. They intend to take no prisoners and certainly do not intend to do any favours for the CML and its members if they have the temerity to continue publicly to oppose the legislation.

Mr Gale, you do not need me to tell you that it is a vital part of our democratic process that interested bodies such as the CML—few bodies have a more legitimate interest in the Bill—can comment on and criticise legislation during its passage through Parliament. Many Committee debates are informed by that sort of comment and criticism. Hard-pressed Opposition members, who do not have access to the lavish back-up enjoyed by Ministers, are often grateful for the briefings, proposed amendments and meetings with bodies such as the CML that are often made available during Committee stage. Therefore, it is all the more disappointing that the CML has chosen to haul up the white flag.

Mr Tim Loughton (East Worthing & Shoreham, Conservative)

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is not the first time that the CML has caved in to Government pressure? When consideration of the regulation of mortgages through the newly formed Financial Services Authority began—I was a member of the relevant Select Committee and the Standing Committee on what became the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000—the CML was entrenched in its opposition to mortgages coming under regulation by the FSA; mysteriously, however, as the months passed and that legislation progressed, it changed its view, as it saw the writing on the wall from the Government and attended discussions behind the scenes.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I will not pursue my hon. Friend down that avenue. However, he provides another graphic example of the bully-boy tactics—[Laughter.]—that Ministers are prepared to adopt. It is amazing that Government Members find that a cause of hilarity. The Minister for Housing and Planning has not yet sought to intervene, although he is welcome to do so. I hope that he will not try to evade the opportunity to give the Committee precise details of the pressures that have been brought to bear on the CML, whether by him or by officials at his behest. Unless his explanation is thorough, complete and clear, I intend to table a series of parliamentary questions to tease out the details of meetings between the CML and him or his officials. The CML has obviously seen fit to haul up the white flag after being bullied by the Minister; it has given up its its genuine opposition to the Bill. That should cause the Committee great concern.

Mr. Nigel Holt, director of the Independent Association of Estate Agents, has made some useful comments on the Bill. I shall not weary the Committee with all of them. He writes:

The overall thinking behind this legislation is flawed . . . the complete package of measures is likely to hinder the market and have detrimental and have unintended side effects.

Let us hope that Mr. Holt is not shortly to receive a visit from the Minister or any of his henchmen and that, in a week or two, we will not have a totally different view being adopted by the Minister in his briefings.

Mr. Holt cites places such as Portugal and sees parallels being drawn with other countries as inappropriate. He talks about chains in property transactions, something with which we are all familiar, and says:

These new packs will not save one day from a proposed sale time if a chain is involved.

He makes a telling point, which we have not covered adequately, on competition:

We pointed out to the Government in March 1999 that one of the risks inherent in the proposals was that large groups of Agents, usually referred to as ``Corporates'', and generally owned by financial institutions, would have the financial clout to offer these packs free. The independent agent would not have that facility.

Mr. Holt makes the perfectly reasonable point that that

will not be good for the general public.

He says that, at a recent meeting to discuss the Bristol pilot, the Minister for Housing and Planning was reported as saying—the hon. Gentleman will have every opportunity to deny it if he thinks the reported statement is untrue—that

small estate agents may not survive. This is part of general competition.

The Minister is reported as going on to say that

his main duty was to consumers and not small businesses.

That will come as relevant information to organisations such as the Federation of Small Businesses, the Independent Association of Estate Agents and the National Association of Estate Agents.

Referring to estate agents, Mr. Holt repeats a point which has been made before that

a significant part of their business in some areas arises from the speculative seller who, although not quite certain, decides to test the water with an agent. Such vendors will disappear.

Mr. Holt talks about a massive overkill and says:

A criminal record for failing to produce the right documents? Mussolini would have been proud.

This final and useful point was made by Mr. Holt:

Is the Government suggesting that they can police the Internet too?

He talks about

a vendor offering a property on the Internet via a server in, say, the British Virgin Islands.

All told, that is a series of very convincing points about the Government's proposals.

As Mr. Holt's letter indicated, it is not as if the Government have been short of good independent advice on the subject. People have been queueing up for a while to advise Ministers that these ideas are wrong-headed and impracticable.

I have another lengthy letter from Cormac Business Systems, a company specialising in putting together the computer software back-up that is likely to be involved in producing seller's packs. Mr. Michael Mortimer makes telling and detailed points which he apparently made to the Minister when he attended meetings at the DETR on the subject. The most interesting aspect is the benefit of Mr. Mortimer's experiences with the United States. Mr. Mortimer says that last August he wrote in some detail to the Minister for Housing and Planning and Mr. Nutall and Ms Whitehead of the Government consultants Martin Hamblin about the experience in the United States and had meetings with officials and consultants.

We hear a great deal about the situation in Denmark—you may feel, Mr. Gale, that you have heard more than you wanted. Mr. Mortimer says:

I discovered that in the US they have tried their version of Home Condition Reports (known as Pre-listing reports) without any degree of success and that in some cases it has lead to greater conflicts of interest and less protection for consumers.

He talks about recent legislation by some states, for example, Massachusetts,

whereby it will soon be illegal for an estate agent to make recommendations to a home buyer on a choice of home inspector.

He says that other states are also considering legislation to limit seller's packs. .

All those genuine, well-argued concerns, which are based on experience and knowledge, seem to have gone unheeded by the Minister and the Government. Why? It is all the more important that we insert this innocuous provision which will ensure consultation with relevant bodies before anything can be done.

The Council of Mortgage Lenders may think that it has had enough consultation to last it a lifetime. The Minister and his officials should lay off people such as the CML, stop trying to bully them into withdrawing their public criticisms of the legislation—which they are perfectly entitled to do in our parliamentary system—let them get on with their proper purpose and let us get on with our proper role in scrutinising this legislation. I should be grateful to have that undertaking from the Minister. For the moment, I commend the amendment to the Committee.

Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)

Order. Those veterans of the 87 hours of the Standing Committee on the Transport Bill will recall that in the small watches of the night I said that members of the Chairman's Panel were not endowed with crystal balls. The precise line of argument that the hon. Member for Eastbourne was going to undertake was not clear from the wording of the amendment. Had it been clearer, I would probably have been minded to group amendment No. 22 with this amendment. It now seems that similar matters are covered in those amendments. If the hon. Member for Bath wishes to raise now the matters that he intended to raise under amendment No. 22, I shall be happy to accommodate that.

Mr Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

Thank you for that ruling. I am sure that it will be for the convenience of the Committee to take the two issues together. As I am sure that members of the Committee will not have had time to jump forward to amendment No. 22, for their benefit I remind them that it proposes that in clause 8, page 6, line 30, insert—

`( ) Regulations under section 7 shall ensure that the home condition report is required to be of a standard likely to be acceptable to mortgage lenders.'.

The purpose of that amendment is clear. When we were debating amendment No. 9, I wrote down some words used by the Minister for Housing and Planning. I hope that I quote him correctly. I understand that he said, ``We intend that the home condition report can be relied on by lenders.'' Later in the debate, referring to the same issue, he said, ``and rightly so.''

I do not think, therefore, that I need to say much more. The purpose of the amendment is clear. It is absolutely clear that the Minister entirely supports it. For those of us who, like you, Mr. Gale, sat through the long hours of the Transport Bill Standing Committee will understand when I say that this is one where I suspect I will have the opportunity of writing a letter home to Mrs. Foster.

Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)

Order. I should have made it clear to the hon. Member that, as he has availed himself of the opportunity to include amendment No. 22 in this group, if he wishes to put the matter to the vote at the appropriate time, I shall be perfectly happy to call it forward.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I did not realise that you were going to call amendment No. 22 at this particular time, Mr. Gale. I would just like to make one important point. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, in a submission to us, makes the point that it will be, and is, working closely with the Government in developing a multi-disciplined, independent accreditation board for the new home inspector's report. It is clearly in everybody's interest that the people producing home inspection reports should be property qualified. Lest anybody should cast aspersions on what I am going to say, I remind them of my registered interest as a chartered surveyor. It is not, however, in that capacity that I raise this point. It is simply a practical point.

My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne quoted from a long letter that we received from Michael Mortimer MRICS, of Cormac Business Systems. I should like to hear the Minister's comments. Mr. Mortimer says that valuations have to be carried out by a qualified valuer, although the same can be said of home condition reports which must be carried out by a qualified surveyor. He adds:

there are currently only about 3,500/4,000 residential valuers—

I assume that the same number would apply to surveyors—

who are currently acceptable to mortgage lenders whereas it is estimated that it will take 9,000 personnel to carry out the required number of home inspections.

That is a significant increase of more than 50 per cent. It takes time to train people to produce a properly qualified and reliable home condition report. It cannot be done overnight. I should like the Minister's assurance that that number of extra qualified people will be available when the Act comes into force in two years' time.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

On a point of order, Mr. Gale. I seek your assistance. There are a number of points, in addition to those that I have already made, that I was proposing to make in the context of amendment No. 22. Am I right in thinking that we will not now be having a separate debate on amendment No. 22, as we have had it already, or will we have a narrow debate on it when we get to it? I am happy to make the points now if you would prefer, but it breaks up the routine.

Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)

I thought that I had made it plain, but let me clarify the position. I offered the hon. Member for Bath the opportunity to raise his points in this debate in view of the breadth of the argument that he deployed. I intend to call amendment No. 22 formally. If the hon. Member for Eastbourne wants to debate it, he should do so now.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

In that case, I shall proceed with the second half of my remarks. I have already dealt with the issues that are particularly relevant to amendment No. 27.

We say that amendment No. 22 is a bit of double-edged sword. If the report is not acceptable to lenders, the buyer will have to pay for a further report, but if the seller is likely to have to pay even more for it to meet the needs of the lender that simply adds to the cost. It is important that we know where lenders stand on the question of the acceptability of the report itself. If they do not accept it, half the purpose of the exercise will be lost. If the lender starts making unreasonable demands about the nature of the report, the seller will incur yet further expense.

What is the position on valuations? I understand that the Minister had something to say about them when he addressed the CML annual conference in December, but his comments were not that well received.

Mr Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

For the benefit of the Committee, will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether, when he preceded his remarks with ``we say'', he was referring to the Conservative party or to the Law Society, whose briefing, he has just read out almost word for word?

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

Both—and well spotted by the hon. Gentleman. I am glad to see that he is doing some of his homework, but if it assists him, I am now turning to the briefing from the Council of Mortgage Lenders. It is keen to ensure that lenders can rely on the home condition report. It says:

This can only be achieved if Home Inspectors—

we will come on to them in more detail under another heading—

are liable to lenders, as well sellers and buyers.

They must also have proper threshold indemnity insurance. It then talks about certification, which again we can leave for the moment.

The only other point that I would have made in the usual way concerns an interesting attachment from our friends at the CML about comparisons with other countries. I do not intend to go through it in detail, but I commend to those hon. Members who have not yet had the chance to read it, the table set out there, making international comparisons. We have heard a lot about Denmark. The document states:

It is the only country identified in the DETR study of practice overseas where the seller is required to include a property condition report in the pre-marketing information pack.

Differences between this country and Denmark are listed, demonstrating conclusively that it is dangerous to draw international parallels. Those differences include significantly lower level of home ownership, a dramatically lower average number of transactions per annum—89,000 in Denmark and 1.4 million in the United Kingdom—and different approaches to financing house purchase and to the liability of the seller for property defects. If we are to hear even more about the Denmark experience, it needs to be put in that context.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak. I have got off my chest not only my concerns, which would have arisen naturally under amendment No 22, but those of other organisations.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I well remember those happy days on the Transport Bill Committee, when the debate went from crystal balls in the early stage of the Committee to golden balls at the end. You are right, Mr. Gale. There is a linkage between amendments Nos. 22 and 36. I am pleased that you suggested that we consider the two together. I shall respond to both debates.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne expressed various views about consultation. I can tell him we are absolutely at one with him about the importance of consultation. I hope that he will understand why his amendment is not acceptable. The farrago of innuendo and speculation that formed the bulk of his speech had absolutely no substance. Let me deal with that quickly, to put it out of the way and put him out of his agony.

We have heard criticisms from the Law Society. The hon. Gentleman always studiously ignores the point that the person best placed to understand the working of the seller's pack—the chairman of the Law Society in Bristol—has been one of the most fervent advocates of seller's packs. I put it to the hon. Gentleman that the closer people are to understanding the workings of the seller's pack, the much more likely it is that they will be supportive. I would take the wider issues of the Law Society with a slight pinch of salt. It may have been preoccupied with different things in recent months and perhaps has not focused enough on the local experience of the seller's pack.

The NAEA has been extremely supportive of the seller's pack proposals, and I am glad that the hon. Member for Eastbourne acknowledged that fact. He then turned to the CML, on which his comments were entirely groundless. Let me give him the information that he sought. How many times have I met the CML? I have met it once—my speech on 4 December, where I made the merits of seller's packs clear. I also made it clear that the Government were interested in the public interest, not in the professional interest of any group of professionals. That has always been, and remains, our stance.

I am delighted that the effect of my speech appears to have been to persuade the CML to change its slightly ill-thought-out opposition to the seller's pack. Mortgage lenders charge £180 for a valuation, which the buyer pays. In many cases, that is a rather large and unreasonable charge. If there is scope to reduce it, that will be widely welcomed by the public. It is in the public interest that we are pursuing this approach. I am delighted that a number of lenders now recognise that and are talking of working with the Government to take forward the seller's pack proposal.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne read all sorts of suspicious connotations into the document from which he quoted, which are largely unfounded. Mr. Coogan, the director general of the CML, had referred to the number of members in the context of making best use of the opportunity to advance their interests through the seller's pack. In that respect, the CML is rightly listening to the views of some of its members.

The hon. Gentleman also cited a particular individual, Mr. Holt. Opposition Members often dredge out some extraordinary people who have written long letters, possibly in green ink. They quote them at great length, as if it added further substance to their arguments. Unfortunately for the Conservatives, Mr. Holt's comparison of the Government with Mussolini is truly extraordinary, given that the first attempt to introduce criminal law in this sector was the previous Conservative Government's Property Misdescriptions Act 1991. In that legislation no limit was placed on the fine, so the charge of being like Mussolini applies more to the Conservatives than to us.

Mr Tim Loughton (East Worthing & Shoreham, Conservative)

Without wishing to enter into a debate about wartime fascists, was not the Property Misdescriptions Act 1991 introduced because of the loopholes and mess left by the previous Labour Government's Estate Agents Act 1979?

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

It is rather a long time between 1979 and 1991, so why did the Conservative Government take so long before getting down to it? I repeat that the Property Misdescriptions Act 1991 introduced criminal sanctions, so the suggestion that we are acting in a dictatorial way reminiscent of Mussolini is wholly wide of the mark. That would also be an appropriate comment on the judgment of Mr. Holt.

I made it clear earlier that the CML was closely involved in the Department's discussions from the outset. Officials have met and will continue to meet the CML regularly to ensure that all issues of mutual concern are properly discussed and dealt with.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne suggested that we are against small businesses. He misquoted the remarks that I made in Bristol, where I pointed out that all businesses—small or large—that did not modernise and failed to recognise that consumers wanted a better, more up-to-date and efficient service would suffer. That is the nature of the market. We cannot and it is not our role to protect inefficient businesses whose customers leave them.

I am surprised that the informant who wrote to the hon. Gentleman did not mention it, but I also said that small estate agents who seized the opportunities of modern technology, new ways of doing business and providing better services to the public were doing extremely well. The strongest evidence comes from the Bristol estate agent who has been the most imaginative and progressive in adopting the seller's pack approach: as a result, it can no longer be regarded as a small estate agent, but a large and expanding one.

Providing a high-quality service, offering seller's packs and utilising electronic communications to speed up the process are clearly attributes of modern, efficient business to which customers respond. Such businesses will do well. Good luck to them. Our proposals will act as a spur to encourage efficient businesses—small and large—to provide a better standard of service to the public. Those who want to continue as they have in the past and live in the quill-pen age—to make an inappropriate reference to a film currently in circulation, and I shall certainly make no further reference to it—will go out of business.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister's dinosaur peroration, but will he respond to my point about the number of competent people available to produce the home condition report?

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I was about to come to the points raised by the hon. Gentleman and by the hon. Member for Bath, but I was covering the issues relating to consultation in amendment No. 1 before dealing with amendment No. 2, which covers the reliability and standard of the report.

We have involved the Consumers Association and all the major professional bodies in the development of the consultation proposals. Those bodies are members of the advisory group that has helped to steer our research and is helping us to prepare implementation. They include the Consumers Association, the NAEA, the Law Society, the Council of Mortgage Lenders, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, the Council for Licensed Conveyancers, the Local Government Association and the Land Registry. We have no problem with full and proper consultation.

We fully share the intention behind the amendment, but the difficulty is that such a general duty to consult is not just meaningless but is potentially unhelpful. For example, it would leave the regulations open to challenge by any body which might claim to have an interest, however remote, and which had not been consulted. The amendment would leave that risk of challenge very present. Therefore, I hope that Opposition Members will recognise that there are good reasons for not accepting the amendment, but I hope that they will also accept that we are utterly committed to consultation.

With regard to amendment No. 22 in the name of the hon. Member for Bath, clause 8 provides that regulations made under clause 7 may make provisions for a report on the physical condition of the property, and that is the home condition report. Clause 8(6) allows the Secretary of State to require or authorise an approved certification scheme to contain provision about any matter relating to home condition reports. That provides an effective way for the Secretary of State to ensure that the interests of all the relevant parties are taken into account, including lenders and consumers. There is no need to single out particular stakeholders as proposed in this amendment. It would be dangerous to do so, as that could effectively give the named group a right of veto over the format of the home condition report.

Because it is necessary to satisfy a range of different interests, I hope the hon. Member for Bath will accept that, while we do not accept the wording of his amendment and hope that he will agree not to press it, the principle behind it is one that we wholeheartedly support. It is our earnest intention to ensure that the procedures for carrying out the inspections leading to the home condition report will give lenders the confidence that they require to rely on that report for valuation purposes. This will significantly reduce the cost to buyers of any charge that is made by lenders for the valuation process.

Mr Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

So that I can be clear about the strength of the hon. Gentleman's view on this matter, could he tell me whether or not this merits at least a postcard?

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman should hold his horses. He may have other opportunities to send a communication to the wife of Bath which may contain stronger news than that the Government had accepted the spirit, if not the wording, of this particular amendment.

The CML is among those represented on the group of stakeholders assisting in the development of the home condition report. It is well placed to ensure that the interests of lenders are given proper consideration. That is very important and I welcome its active involvement. A key objective is that the home condition report should meet its legitimate needs and be trusted by it. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree not to press his amendment No. 22.

The hon. Member for Cotswold raised two particular issues. The first concerned the standard of the report, and the second the number of surveyors necessary to carry out inspections. We are dealing with a report that will provide a level 2 inspection, a mid-range inspection, which is the broad standard applicable currently for the home buyer survey and valuation. In a number of respects the home condition report will be superior to the home buyer survey and valuation. It will be prepared in a standard form with consistent reporting and therefore will achieve greater objectivity. The caveats and limitations will be specified in a standard format, reducing the scope for individual valuers to undermine the value of the report by setting conditions or caveats themselves that might be difficult for individual members of the public to understand.

The electronic format will aid completion and transmission of the report, and—this is crucial, and as an experienced valuer, the hon. Member for Cotswold will understand the importance of this—there will be rigorous monitoring, auditing and validation of reports because all reports will have to be registered. There will be a mechanism to scrutinise reports to identify the possibility of soft reporting by individual valuers, which can then be investigated.Therefore, a good standard will be provided for the public. I would be happy to undertake to circulate further details to all members of the Committee if that would be helpful.

On the question of numbers, the figure mentioned by the hon. Member for Cotswold was slightly misleading. The people who qualify under a certification scheme will have to be sufficiently qualified to carry out the work to a necessary standard. Based on current transaction levels, we estimate that some 9,000 inspectors will be needed. The industry already employs about the same number of general practice surveyors, who are dedicated to residential practice and are expected to be interested in this work. Those surveyors currently undertake a variety of roles, including agency, as well as surveying and valuation, but it is anticipated that the industry will realign itself in response to demand for home condition reports. In addition, there are 3,000 RICS building surveyors, the number referred to by the hon. Member for Cotswold, who have expressed interest in undertaking the work. Members of other professions are interested, including those from the Architecture and Surveying Institute, the Chartered Institute of Builders, the Association of Building Engineers, the Institute of Structural Engineers and the Institution of Civil Engineers.

I hope that the hon. Member for Cotswold will recognise that we do not believe that there will be a problem with numbers, but that we recognise that it is important to allow sufficient time for all those people to acquire the necessary skills and training to be able to meet the rigorous standards required for accreditation. That is why it is necessary and appropriate to have a two-year period before the introduction of the scheme.

I hope that that allays the concerns of the hon. Member on the standard of the report and the number of surveyors required. With those assurances, I hope that hon. Members will not press the amendments.

Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold, Conservative)

I am not sure whether the Minister is giving way or whether I am to make a speech. A separate speech suits me rather better, as I will not have to be quite so concise—[Interruption.] It is in my nature to be so.

The Minister might like to consider—he does not have to reply now—that one of the problems involved in buying and selling properties is the financial offer. Even after all inquiries and the information provided by the seller's pack, there would still be the problem of purchasers obtaining a financial offer. It has been suggested to us that property transactions could be speeded-up by involving the mortgage industry and other financial lending institutions in a pre-certification scheme. A decision could be made on whether to offer a loan on the basis of the seller's pack. Such institutions could decide, in principle, particularly in the case of new property, to lend a certain amount on a particular property. That could be extended to insurance as well so that one would know that insurance would be provided and the approximate cost of the premium. If we could incorporate such a mechanism, we really would begin to make a step change in the rate at which properties are bought and sold.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I can say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, we believe that there is merit in potential buyers establishing their mortgage potential in advance. That would help to speed up the process and give reassurance to any seller who had doubts about their ability to pay for the property. There may be a case for seeking in advance from the lender an in-principle view on the willingness to lend on certain types of property. As the hon. Gentleman will be the first to recognise, we then move into more difficult territory because, in most cases, the lender will be cautious about giving such an indication without having had an opportunity to establish an informed view about the value of the property and its condition. Therefore, my guess is that a lender might be unwilling to give an indication to which one could attach much weight, unless there had been a previous opportunity to view the property, perhaps as a result of a previous failed transaction or if the property had recently changed hands. We are certainly sympathetic to the principle of securing more advance information to enable people to move with confidence and to reach a quick decision.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I have no intention of asking leave to withdraw the amendment. The Department seems to have a house style for Ministers trying to get out of tight corners by bluster alone. When a Minister starts talking about a ``farrago of innuendo'' and using a lot of other words in the same sentence ending in an ``o'', we know that he is on the ropes.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

Portillo. [Interruption.]

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman finds that amusing. However, many people will find the debate rather chilling, to put it mildly. He wheeled out his old chum, the president of the Bristol Law Society. As I said on Second Reading, of course the Bristol Law Society and Bristol estate agents, were over the moon at the one-off shot in the arm from the taxpayer, which amounted to some £370,000. If the Minister would like to do the same for Eastbourne, I can almost guarantee that the president of the Eastbourne Law Society would be similarly appreciative and enthusiastic. Also, if the estate agent mentioned by the Minister has been a beneficiary of the same process, she will be expanding. It is genuinely worrying and an affront to the whole process to talk about taking what the Law Society says with a pinch of salt. I am a member of the Law Society and I do not always agree with what it says on a range of issues. However, it does represent over 80,000 solicitors in England and Wales, and the Minister could be a little more open to the points it is trying to make. It does have a legitimate interest, not only financially, but in getting the legislation right.

The Minister said that what I said about the CML was entirely groundless, which on the facts alone cannot be right. It was bad salesmanship to refer to his speech to the CML on 4 December 2000, which seems to have gone down like the proverbial lead balloon. There are some unhappy people in the CML as a direct result of the Minister's remarks. He took a very narrow view when he tried to paint himself and his colleagues as champions of the public interest. With a sweep of the hand he discounted the views of all the professional bodies and professionals involved as somehow unreliable and not worthy of our consideration, because that is how they make their living. That is outrageous. Those professionals have concerns that go beyond their own narrow professional and financial interests. They are concerned about the effect of the proposals on consumers in the real world. They are particularly qualified to make those comments, because that is how they make their living. It is obvious that there has been arm-twisting of the CML and who knows what other organisations behind closed doors by Ministers, and by others at Ministers' behest. The Minister said that he had only one meeting with CML; it would be interesting to know who else met its representatives. As I said, we shall table questions to try to discover the relevant dates, names and times.

It is bad enough that the Government are trying to reduce the opportunities for debate in the House, without their terrorising organisations that have a legitimate interest in commenting on the barmy nature of some of the Government's proposals. When an organisation such as the CML talks about behind-the-scenes activity, it suggests that it can have come only from the Government side of the Committee.

If people such as Mr. Holt, whom I quoted extensively, take the trouble to write to the Committee with their sensible and detailed thoughts, it is unacceptable for the Minister to talk about extraordinary people and people who write in green ink. We all have our share of such people in our constituencies, but sadly the Labour party also has them in its own ranks. The Minister is one of those people who thinks that everyone but him is out of step; not only is everyone else wrong—the Law Society, the CML, the Independent Association of Estate Agents, Mr. Holt and so on—but it is an outright impertinence that they tell us their views.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I do not expect to persuade the hon. Gentleman, but comparing the Government's actions with those of Mussolini is not a helpful contribution to a serious and rational debate, especially in view of my observations about the Property Misdescriptions Act 1991.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I would not compare the Minister to Mussolini, but people are entitled to express their frustration, alarm and surprise that criminal sanctions such as those imposed for carrying a flick knife are to be applied to people who cannot get their seller's packs sorted out. What kind of world is the Minister living in? The foundations of our civilisation will not be threatened if people do not sort out their seller's pack in time.

The Minister met the CML once—did not that go well?—and his officials will no doubt continue to have meetings with that organisation. The hon. Gentleman claimed not to be against small business, but he is happy to countenance smaller agents going out of business and large agents, usually owned by the big financial institutions, dominating the market. The Bill will distort the market in two ways: first, it will reduce the number of properties being put on the market and, secondly, it will disadvantage smaller, independent agents. It is no good the Minister saying, ``Oh well, they don't give the same kind of service; they are all in the age of the quill pen.'' The Minister may have made a startling revelation about how he spends his off-duty hours, but that is another matter.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions; Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

Will the hon. Gentleman please accept what I have said clearly in Committee and on other occasions, that there is no question of small businesses going out of business as a result of the measures? I spoke specifically about a small business that was thriving and about how innovative businesses, whether small or large, which developed services for the public would thrive. Those businesses, large or small, that did not would probably go to the wall, as that is the nature of business. Will the hon. Gentleman please not misrepresent me as saying that somehow that would be disadvantageous to small businesses? I do not believe that and I have never said it.

Mr Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne, Conservative)

I am happy to accept that the Minister was misquoted in respect of the meeting in Bristol, or the Bristol scheme, and to move on. However, that does not alter the more important fact that the small agents think that they will be under threat as a direct result of the proposals.

We struck a sensitive chord with the Government; the Minister's answers were not remotely satisfactory and some were downright derogatory to people who made legitimate, responsible representations. I urge my hon. Friends to support the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 4, Noes 9.