Mr John Denham (Minister of State, Department of Health; Southampton, Itchen, Labour)

I beg to move amendment No. 222, in page 63, line 19, leave out `of a prescribed description' and insert—

`determined in accordance with the regulations'.

Mr David Madel (South West Bedfordshire, Conservative)

With this it will be convenient to take the following:

Government amendment No. 284.

Government new clause 12—Premises from which piloted services may be provided.

Mr John Denham (Minister of State, Department of Health; Southampton, Itchen, Labour)

We are moving at such a rate that I am losing track.

Amendment No. 284 and new clause 12 deal with the movement of people from national arrangements to LPS and vice versa. New clause 12 deals with pilot schemes, while amendment No. 284 deals with the substantive, post-pilot arrangements, by adding further sub-paragraphs to paragraph 3 of schedule 3.

In both cases, the amendments provide powers to prevent people from providing services under both LPS and the national arrangements from the same premises. That is only sensible. In most cases it would be virtually impossible to tell when a prescription was being dispensed under LPS and when under the national contract. To let the two run side by side would be a recipe for confusion and—conceivably—fraud.

However, as with the equivalent provision for PMS, we do not think there should necessarily be a blanket ban. It is possible to imagine circumstances in which it might make sense for LPS to be provided from premises where services under national arrangements are also provided. For example, an LPS scheme might focus on out-of-hours services. In that case, there could be a clear distinction between LPS and the national arrangements, even though the same premises were used. Regulations will be able to make exceptions to the general rule.

The amendments provide a basis for regulations about transfer to and from pharmaceutical lists—the lists held by health authorities of the people with whom they have arrangements to provide services under the national contractual framework. When pharmacies move into LPS schemes, they will generally stop providing services under national arrangements, and so will need to be removed from pharmaceutical lists. The amendments provide for that.

Rather more significant for pharmacy owners will be the question whether they will be able to return to the national arrangements if, for any reason, their LPS scheme does not work out. The arrangements will be similar to those for PMS. Before people start providing LPS, they will be told whether they will have a preferential right to return—or in the case of new providers, transfer—to the national arrangements. Such a right will mean that they do not have to go through the normal control of entry procedures when they apply to go back on to the pharmaceutical list. Decisions about rights of transfer and return will be taken by the Secretary of State for pilot schemes and by health authorities for the later substantive arrangements.

Amendment No. 221 removes a small inconsistency in the drafting of the regulation making powers in paragraph 3(3)(a) of schedule 3.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 284, in page 63, line 28, at end insert—

`( ) prevent (except in such circumstances and to such extent as may be prescribed) the provision of both LP services and pharmaceutical services from the same premises;

( ) make provision with respect to the inclusion, removal, re-inclusion or modification of an entry in respect of premises in a list under section 42;'.

No. 223, in page 63, line 42, at end insert—

`.—(1) Regulations may provide for the making and recovery, in such manner as may be prescribed, of charges for local pharmaceutical services.

(2) The regulations may, in particular provide for—

(a) exemptions from charges;

(b) the liability to pay charges to be disregarded in prescribed circumstances or for prescribed purposes;

(c) section 122A of this Act (recovery of certain charges and payments) to apply also in relation to local pharmaceutical services (with or without modification);

(d) section 122B of this Act (penalties) to apply also in relation to local pharmaceutical services (with or without modification).

(3) The regulations must secure that the amount charged for any service is the same as the amount that would be charged for that service if it were provided under Part II of this Act.'.—[Mr. Denham.]

Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to