Clause 8 - Overview and Scrutiny Committees: Exempt Information
Health and Social Care Bill
5:15 pm

Mr Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)

I have a question on the Government's thinking about the difference in operation between NHS bodies, which are governed by the access arrangements made under 1960s legislation on access to public bodies, and local authorities, which are governed by the Local Government Act 1972. Can the Minister tell us a little more about how, through regulations, he can ensure that a trust cannot decide that it would be embarrassed to provide information that was not exempted under the Local Government Act that might nevertheless be exempt under the 1960s legislation? How can we ensure that local authorities, with their new powers of overview and scrutiny, can obtain all the necessary information, including information that trusts might not want published under the 1960s legislation but which they would have to publish if they were covered by the Local Government Act?

Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West, Conservative)

I echo what the hon. Gentleman said, but I would go further. I believe that we have the chance to review the two sets of rules under which the two bodies will operate. If the scrutiny committees operate under one set of confidentiality rules and health authorities and the NHS enjoy a much wider discretion to withhold information, a measure of suspicion is bound to grow between two bodies that we want to work to a large extent in partnership.

It strikes me that the Bill may provide an opportunity for the Government to review the issue to see whether there is a means of introducing proposals for a common set of standards for confidentiality. I suspect that there will always be the temptation, and it might be a quite legitimate concern for NHS bodies, that information that they might regard as confidential, would not be regarded as confidential within the rather narrower terms under which local government bodies operate once they had been handed over to the scrutiny committee. That might result in a reinforcing of what might be an administrative inertia to hand over information in the first place.

Dr Peter Brand (Isle of Wight, Liberal Democrat)

I am concerned about what information the scrutiny committee may have and what sort of paperwork there may be. A very relevant question was asked this morning by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) in relation to clause 15 on who would become the custodian of files and information held by community health councils. The Minister did not answer at the time. Perhaps he could now let us know where that information will go? It will obviously include a mix of personal and clinical information as well as more strategic information.

Mr John Denham (Minister of State, Department of Health; Southampton, Itchen, Labour)

The clause is essentially about the openness of the business of the scrutiny committee. Under clause 7, the Secretary of State can require the NHS to provide information to the scrutiny committee. So we will use that route to ensure that the necessary information is made available to the scrutiny committee.

The Local Government Act 2000 provided that meetings of the overview and scrutiny committee must be held in public. The Local Government Act 1972 provided for two exceptions to that general obligation: first, where certain confidential information may be disclosed and secondly where the scrutiny committee agrees by resolution of the committee or council that certain exempt information may be disclosed.

Section 12A of the Local Government Act 2000 sets out the categories of exempt information, such as information relating to a particular employee of the local authority or to a person receiving services from the authority. Where a scrutiny committee is discussing NHS matters, for example where it has asked the chief executive of the local health authority to attend, it is possible that the committee may discuss matters that would lead to the disclosure of information relating to the NHS that would not be appropriate to disclose to the public at large, such as information relating to personnel. The function of clause 8 in combination with schedule 1 to the Bill sets out the information that local authorities do not have to disclose at a public meeting of the scrutiny committee.

Where the restrictions on NHS bodies that are governed by the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 are more restrictive than the provisions that now apply to overview and scrutiny committees, we have modelled our approach on the approach in the Local Government Act 2000 rather than on the 1960 Act. The provision for public access to meetings and documents of NHS bodies is more restrictive than is the case for local government and overview and scrutiny committees. We think that the more open and legislative approach to overview and scrutiny committees when they are discussing health service bodies is justifiable. They are local authority committees and should be subject to the same regime of public access whatever the matter under scrutiny. That is the broad thrust of our approach.

The hon. Member for Isle of Wight was quite right to say that I failed this morning to address the specific point about material held by CHCs. It will be necessary to develop arrangements whereby, as a result of the winding-up of the CHCs, the Secretary of State will clearly be responsible for handling those files in the appropriate way. That may require returning information to individuals.

Mr Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)

Will the Minister develop that point a stage further? If the Secretary of State has to decide how information is dealt with, will the Minister assure us that in all circumstances the consent of patients or relatives will be sought before the information is passed on to some new body?

Mr John Denham (Minister of State, Department of Health; Southampton, Itchen, Labour)

We shall need to work through the exact arrangements in detail but, on first hearing, the hon. Gentleman's suggestion sounds eminently sensible. The Secretary of State will have to act properly with regard to the fact that the information is personal and confidential.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.