Clause 2 - Penalty notices
Criminal Justice and Police Bill
11:15 am
Mr Charles Clarke (Minister of State, Home Office; Norwich South, Labour)
We debated that at length during our previous sitting. The fact is that we do not have a comprehensive national system of recording fixed penalty notices, but we expect individual forces to hold records of what has happened. However, that is not a criminal record, and so does not stand on the record in the way that the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggests.
Let us get back to the amendment. We have spent a lot of time hearing interventions from Conservative Committee members in what was nevertheless a serious debate. Identity problems are nothing new—that is self-evident—and the police have a great deal of experience with dealing them. The amendment concerns the remedies available should false identification be provided, as was stated by the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), who made a speech that was to the point. The Government's position is that correct identification details are essential to the efficient operation of the new system, as they are in every aspect of police rights across the system.
Obviously, not every offender engaged in disorderly or anti-social behaviour will volunteer correct information when first asked, whether because of particular circumstances such as those adduced or because they take the advice of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey that when approached by a police officer, the best thing to do is to leg it. For that reason, we have a range of safeguards to deal with the problem, and our considered view is that the safeguards that I shall now cite make the creation of the new offence unnecessary. However, I take seriously the points that the hon. Member for Reigate made so clearly. I hope that he will consider carefully what I am about to say about the specific safeguards.
The Bill includes a power for the Secretary of State to issue guidance to the police about the issue of notices and the exercise of discretion under the new scheme. I should clarify—this may offer an assurance to the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire—that we intend to issue guidance making it absolutely clear that penalty notices should not be issued while identification is in doubt, for exactly the reasons stated and as is general practice, and that powers are available under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to arrest offenders and take them to a police station for identification to be established. I believe that that meets the point made by the Association of Chief Police Officers, and I can give a further assurance that ACPO will be fully involved in the drawing up of such guidance.
We believe that the deliberate telling of a lie to a police officer in these circumstances could constitute an offence of wilfully obstructing a constable in the execution of his duty under section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996. I say to the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire that that offence is a more accurate description of the sanction than wasting police time, although it does offer an alternative route. Giving false information to the police is a serious matter and it is not unique to the fixed penalty notice.
If a penalty notice were completed with false particulars about the offender, they will relate probably to a person unconnected with the offence. If so, the first that that person is likely to know about the matter is when he receives a notice informing him that a fine has been registered against him. We have included special provision under clause 12 to deal with such a situation. A default court considering such a case will have the power to adjourn to allow the claim that the named person did not commit the offence to be investigated. It will then have to accept the claim, unless the contrary can be shown, and has the power to set aside the fine in the interests of justice. If it does not direct that no further action is to be taken, it must direct that further consideration is given to the case, as appropriate. That might include steps being taken against the offender who committed the penalty offence.
If a juvenile offender falsely claims to be more than 18 years old and, as a consequence, is issued with a penalty notice, the notice will be void and, provided that the offender is informed of that—and why—and any payment is returned, it will be possible to deal with the juvenile for the offence in any way that would have been available had the notice not been issued.
The four safeguards in the Bill are the guidance that will be issued; the fact that powers under the Police Act 1996 can be used; the procedure under clause 12 to deal with false particulars; and the provisions to deal with the possibility that a youth offender claims falsely to be over 18. They provide sufficient ways in which to handle the provision of false particulars. A further offence will not be necessary.