Clause 1 - Offences leading to penalities on the spot.
Criminal Justice and Police Bill
11:30 am
Mr Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey, Liberal Democrat)
The hon. Gentleman is right to look at the matter in that context. I have a practical example. Someone who protested last year against the visit of the President of China because of China's actions in Tibet might have been guilty of
``insulting words...within hearing or sight of persons likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress''.
The President of China might, in my view justifiably, have been alarmed, distressed or perturbed by the demonstration—I hope that he saw as many demonstrators as possible. In such a case, it would be possible for a police officer to say, ``You're nicked.'' Is that appropriate? Is that the sort of behaviour for which someone should receive a fixed penalty notice? Is it right that those people from my constituency who protested during the Chinese President's visit should be subject to on-the-spot justice by a police officer, especially as we now know that the police acted inappropriately? Everyone has accepted that the police went over the top in that situation and behaved in a way that was overly restrictive of liberty for reasons that were explored last year. That is a good example of how difficult it is to know what is distressing to whom in any particular circumstances.
The hon. Gentleman raised another issue. Of a group of seven people, who are, perhaps, waving at two police officers coming down the street, which will the police officer choose? Should it be the one who is most likely to run away quickly or the one whom the police officer is most likely to be able to get hold of? If I was a police officer, I think that I would choose the one who was least likely to give me grief, least likely to bop me over the head and least likely to be able to run away quickly. Therefore, there is an element of subjectivity, which means that the police officer might choose the person who is most vulnerable or least able to run. Depending on the circumstances, the police officer will make a judgment at the time, and if he has no reinforcements, he is hardly likely to go for the biggest, strongest, fittest individual, who is most likely to give him trouble. That person will then escape the fixed penalty notice and all sorts of justice, while someone else who is a less effective combatant will not.
Furthermore, a fixed penalty notice might be served on someone who does not actually receive it, or there might be some argument about whether the notice was received or whether the person dropped it on the pavement—we will come to other examples of how barmy the whole process is. Then the process must be followed up in the event of a challenge being made later.
Yesterday, I was told about a poll carried out by BBC Online with ICM, for which 1,000 people in England, Scotland and Wales were interviewed in the past few days. It is interesting that, by a narrow margin, a majority—or a large minority: 49 per cent. to 47 per cent.—of people do not think that fixed penalty notices are an appropriate punishment. Most people think that fixed penalty notices are an inappropriate way of dealing with any offences, not just the ones listed in the Bill. As I argued on Second Reading, if we want to take this approach, we should pilot the scheme in certain areas and make a judgment on the basis of the experience of the magistrates, police, probation service, youth service and local authority.
Amendment No. 24 would include street trading. I am sympathetic to that because there are more open and visible signs of street trading. London is an obvious example, but there are also other places where fly-by-night—although they are usually fly-by-day—people illegally pitch their burger stalls or flag stalls. It seems that that would be easier to deal with because it is more difficult for traders to scoot away with their barrows on two wheels or their kebab stalls. Admittedly, some traders in shopping centres can just close their suitcases or briefcases and run away, but I agree with the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire that that is the sort of offence that should logically be included in the list.
Therefore, I am sympathetic to deleting the two offences that the hon. Gentleman suggests should be deleted, and will vote accordingly if he presses his amendment to a vote. However, contrary to my general view that fixed penalty notices are an inappropriate way of dealing with most offences, I am sympathetic to including unlawful trading and would support that amendment. I am still not persuaded that a long list of offences should be included before we have tested the basic idea. We should do that in a localised way to see whether it has any validity and whether any of the fines, if properly issued, would be collected in significant numbers and thus bring the criminal justice system into greater repute.