New Clause 3 - Right of Commissioner to comment on court decisions
Children's Commissioner for Wales Bill
4:30 pm
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Plaid Cymru)
I, too, welcome you to the chair this afternoon, Mr. Wells.
Most of the arguments have already been put. I agree with the hon. Members for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) and for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Livsey). The wording of the clause it is quite peculiar. It states:
``the Commissioner to enquire into or report on any matter so far as it is the subject of legal proceedings before, or has been determined by,''—
the operative words in the amendment—``a court or tribunal.'' No one inside or outside the House would argue that the sub judice principle is not perfectly sensible and should not be upheld. However, there is no argument for precluding proper detailed comments on, and investigation into, matters that have already been decided.
The hon. Member for Bridgend asked whether the commissioner would have been prevented from commenting on the awful events dealt with in the Waterhouse report because many of those involved had been the subject of proceedings. A number of people in my chambers in Chester spent three or four years prosecuting those evil people. If—God forbid—such a tragedy were to be repeated, I am afraid that the commissioner would be gagged from taking any part in the proceedings, and that is astonishing.
The Waterhouse inquiry, conducted thoroughly by Sir Ronald Waterhouse and the other members of the panel, came to the firm conclusion early on in its recommendations that a commissioner was necessary. There is no mention in the recommendations of judicial proceedings, but, looking at the spirit of what was recommended, I am sure that the inquiry would not have wished the commissioner to have been denied access to decided cases. There are two good reasons for that. First under our present constitution, laws appertaining to children, and anyone else for that matter, are made by the House and by the National Assembly. Secondly, case law precedents develop the law, and decided cases are important. In some areas of family law, they are more important than the actual statute itself. Many decided cases of family law completely change the situation. I will not bore the Committee with examples, but family law can be quite radical. Laws can suddenly be changed on the strength of a Court of Appeal of a House of Lords decision. The commissioner will not be able to feed into that.
None of us want a repeat of the awful events that gave rise to the Waterhouse inquiry, but, human nature being what it is, and given what we read about some of these paedophile rings, there is more to come throughout Wales, I hope not to the same degree, but who knows? We will have a commissioner who will have to say, `I'm sorry, but I cannot comment on that, because one of the number has been prosecuted for a sexual offence.' That is not adequate, and will reflect badly on his office and all who work in it. It will hamper the commissioner in his duties, and I am concerned about that.
The hon. Member for Bridgend said that Children in Wales feels strongly about the matter, and he mentioned the various constituent bodies of Children in Wales. They have worked hard during the passage of the Bill, and previously in lobbying the Assembly, and they were the first to flag up the need for a commissioner. Please can we take heed of their expert advice and opinions? Those people are at the coalface, dealing with children, whether they be in care, in private accommodation or in the public sphere. They know what they are talking about, and they feel strongly about this.
We have previously mentioned the two unfortunate young children from America, who were allegedly bought. I feel awful using that word. There was the high profile murder of young Damilola Taylor and the Bulger case, involving the two boys, one of whose parents allegedly live in north Wales, not that that matters. We have high profile cases involving young children in various spheres, whether in the criminal or the civil courts, and it is ridiculous that the commissioner cannot make comments. Everyone and his brother will be making comments to the press, and it would be unacceptable if an invitation to the expert on children's welfare to comment were to meet with the response, `I am sorry, that does not come within my remit. I cannot comment on anything that has been decided in a court of law.' That will doubtless hamper the commissioner. We are not playing politics with this subject. The new clause has the support of the Liberal Democrats and it was tabled by the hon. Member for Bridgend and his colleagues. I fully support the new clause and I believe that the Government are wrong. I urge the Minister to rethink even at this late stage, and to go back and consider it further for another time.
Curiously, the first thing that the Northern Ireland commissioner did was to investigate the judicial process in the north of Ireland as it impinges on children. Why is there a difference between the way that that commissioner can act and the way in which the Children's Commissioner for Wales would be precluded from considering such an investigation?
New clause 4 is also important. It would ensure that the commissioner has the proper access to various bodies that he requires to carry out his work efficiently. We have heard that he will be entitled to make informal comments. If I hear that a Department or an official body has made informal comments, I often switch off immediately. Informal comments often mean ill-informed comments or `I am sorry, I do not really know half the story but I will give you an off-the-cuff informal comment about it', which would not usually be worth the paper it was written on. Are we seriously saying that the commissioner will have to be invited to comment informally on matters because he cannot gain the proper urgent access that he may require from time to time?
We know that abuse probably continues in some residential children's homes in Wales. It will be some of the people involved in that who will refuse to give access. Those people will be obstructive, and will pose the greatest risk to children. The paedophile rings that operate throughout the UK and beyond are very sophisticated. When they see that a commissioner can be denied proper access to an institution, access will be denied. I fear for the safety of children in those circumstances. Surely we can reconsider that matter. Both the new clauses have been well drafted and have reason and force behind them. I urge the Government to reconsider, even at this stage.