National Crime Agency

Private Members' Business – in the Northern Ireland Assembly at 12:30 pm on 6 October 2014.

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Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin 12:30, 6 October 2014

Order.  The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for this debate.  The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech.  One amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List.  The proposer will have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes to make a winding-up speech.  All other speakers will have five minutes.

Photo of William Irwin William Irwin DUP

I beg to move

That this Assembly condemns the increasing number of illegal activities being carried out by organised criminal gangs; notes police assessments of over 140 such gangs operating in Northern Ireland; and calls for the implementation, in full, of the National Crime Agency to help deal with this problem, which is particularly prevalent in border areas.

The need for the National Crime Agency (NCA) to have full powers extended to cover Northern Ireland is recognised by many interested parties, most notably and obviously the British Government, the agencies responsible for administering justice and the courts and those involved in policing.  Of course, we in the DUP strongly support that extension.  As someone who represents a border constituency, I am well aware of the impact that criminal gangs have on our rural communities by creating victims of crime and the negative impact on the rural economy.  We have seen audacious attempts by such gangs to carry out all sorts of crimes, including the exploding of ATMs on the forecourts of garages, the laundering and selling of illegal fuel, the stealing to order of valuable machinery and the worrying trend in the theft of cattle and the illegal slaughter and sale of those animals in the Republic and certain areas such as south Armagh.  Those incidents illustrate the need to have at our disposal the expertise and assistance of the National Crime Agency.  As we all know, the criminals respect neither borders nor victims in their illegal pursuits. 

The work that the NCA is involved in not only relates to the crimes that I have outlined but importantly has a significant role in the area of Internet-based crime.  Members will be aware that the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child has expressed its strong views on the protection of children online.  The UN committee is rightly concerned, as we all should be, about the lack of NCA powers in Northern Ireland, which means that the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre is not fully operational here at this time. The entire House should be alarmed about that issue alone.  Our children are at much greater risk due to the fact that the NCA is not operational here.  I challenge the nationalist parties to explain to the public why they have adopted a negative stance on its implementation here given the UN report and its ramifications.  The protection of our children is hugely important and completely necessary and urgent, especially with regard to the Internet and how our children are protected from those who prey on young people online.

I certainly feel that the issue is directly affecting a very broad range of people, from the rural farmer who has valuable machinery stolen to order to those involved in the detection of online crime, such as the serious and sickening issue of child pornography. The National Crime Agency is a body that Northern Ireland simply cannot do without.  It operates in other regions of the UK and, at a time when our policing budgets are under severe pressure, it makes complete sense to allow the PSNI to have the necessary assistance of the NCA to carry out its investigative duties.  I also believe that the ability to seize assets is vital in the fight against these gangsters, who currently think that they are untouchable.

The reluctance of Sinn Féin and the SDLP to accept the necessity of allowing the NCA to operate and the PSNI to avail itself of its expertise in the fight against crime internationally means that Northern Ireland and its citizens are at a severe disadvantage.  The two nationalist parties continually bleat about equality, but, once again, the calls for equality fall short of ensuring that our communities have the very best security and that the organisations tasked with protecting communities have the very best intelligence and powers at their disposal.  The nationalist parties have hollow concerns over the accountability of the NCA, yet the organisation is already subject to rigorous scrutiny from Committees in Parliament, such as the Home Affairs Committee, as well as the Office of Surveillance Commissioners and the Investigatory Powers Tribunal.  The public have the right to approach these and many more bodies to question any outward operation of the NCA. Representing a border constituency, I have a desire to see criminality and its effects on innocent victims —

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

The Member talks about all sorts of bodies looking at the NCA.  Will he tell the House what accountability measures exist presently in relation to the NCA?  Please describe to the House the accountability to the Chief Constable and the Policing Board?

Photo of William Irwin William Irwin DUP

The accountability measures are mainly based in the UK.  Certainly, I have no fear of any accountability measures —

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

I am asking the Member particularly about accountability measures in Northern Ireland, not in Westminster or the UK, as you put it.

Photo of William Irwin William Irwin DUP

There seems to be real reluctance from the Member and his party.  Many people in Northern Ireland will be concerned that the Member and, indeed, his party want to let gangsters roam free and behave as they will.  They are burying their heads in the sand if they believe that that is not happening.  It clearly is, right across Northern Ireland.  Police sources reckon that there are approximately 140 of these gangs.  It is sad that we cannot get the terms to tackle those criminal gangsters.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

Will the Member give way?

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

The Member will know that the Member for North Belfast is a very well educated man and very capable in his job.  Does the Member share my concern that the SDLP and Sinn Féin are providing the obstacle to the Police Ombudsman being able to hold the NCA to account — currently for non-devolved matters and, into the future, for devolved matters — and that the SDLP and Sinn Féin are preventing the Chief Constable from being given primacy for the NCA's activities in Northern Ireland?  They are the ones who are stopping accountability, as opposed to this party.

Photo of William Irwin William Irwin DUP 12:45, 6 October 2014

I thank the Member for his intervention.  I agree with him absolutely.  Representing a border constituency, I have a desire to see this criminality and its effects on innocent victims significantly stamped out.  We have the chance to greatly increase the PSNI's capacity for dealing with it.

I urge the House, on behalf of the victims of such crime, to reconsider the matter and move quickly towards its implementation.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

I beg to move the amendment:

Leave out all after "calls for" and insert

"statutory provision to be made so that all members of the National Crime Agency on operational duty locally are subject to the same accountability mechanisms and bodies that govern the work of the PSNI and its officers.".

Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an rúin seo.  I will speak against the motion and for the amendment. 

Let us make very clear some of the myths and, at minimum, exaggerations being pointed out here.  The NCA already operates in the North on non-devolved matters.  That means things like immigration, customs-related crime, fuel laundering and smuggling, which are some of the things that Mr Irwin mentioned. In a way, the core issues are simple, and he pointed them out.  The first one is accountability, which was crucial to Patten, crucial to us and crucial to the new beginning to policing.  I will return to assets recovery a bit later. 

Why do we not want them to be unaccountable?  Because our history has demonstrated what unaccountability does.  Back in those times, you had a force within a force; you had shoot to kill; you had state agents involved in crime, right up to and including murder; you had confessions beaten out of people going through interrogation centres; and you had a police force — not a service — that acted as front line troops and was involved in collusion and corruption.  If you want to know why we are so strong on the issue, the history and the evidence shows why. Let me say this: more recently —

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

No.  You will have your chance to come back. 

More recently, some ex-RUC people who left and got away from the accountability measures brought in by Patten came back in through the retire/rehire revolving door.  We have seen that that was much abused in terms of where they were, which created a huge difficulty.  At least some of them left specifically because there were accountability mechanisms there, so that they would come back as temporary workers and not be police officers, and then they went back to the old habits of non-accountability. I think that unionists are hankering back to the old situation, and, when there is an opportunity to move forward, they will not take that up.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

No, I will not give way

You will also know that unionists signed up to Patten and eventually, after a long debate, to the transfer of those powers in 2010.  Another myth that unionists are promoting — this debate came up close to a year ago — is that the pursuit of organised crime has ceased.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The NCA cooperates with an Garda Síochána, the European law enforcement agencies, Interpol and other law enforcement agencies.  This question needs to be asked: is the NCA refusing to give information or to cooperate with an Garda Síochána or any other force?  The answer to that is no.  Most importantly, is it refusing to give any of the information or cooperation that the PSNI needs?  No, it is not. On child exploitation, which was mentioned, on drugs trafficking, on cross-border smuggling, on human trafficking — on all those accounts — the answer is no, because they are given the cooperation that is necessary to bring to book the people who are destroying our society.  A perfect example of that quite recently was the finding of £100 million worth of drugs on a ship off the coast of Ireland, which the NCA was involved in and an Garda Síochána then moved on.  They did not have to do that.  It was an Garda Síochána who had the accountability mechanism there. [Interruption.] Maybe the hecklers will keep quiet, and I will get on with it.

I have spoken to Keith Bristow, and I know that he wants further cooperation: why would he not?  I know that he wants further powers. In a certain way, people who are offered further powers always want them. Maybe that is fairly normal, except if you are in the DUP. Recently they were offered more powers similar to those that have been offered to Scotland and other places, but they seemed to refuse them. Specifically, Keith Bristow wanted the power of police officer for those in the NCA — incidentally, excluding himself.  Of course, the British Home Secretary can sort that out.  All she has to do is make them accountable to all the mechanisms.  If they want the powers of a police officer, make them as accountable as all other police officers are in this jurisdiction in the North.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

No, I will not. [Interruption.] Folks, you will have your chance to come back on all this.

What are the unionists and, indeed, the British Home Secretary afraid of?  If they agree that our police officers should be accountable — they have agreed to that — what is the problem?  Why not make NCA officers accountable also?  It is one of the things that I cannot understand, except that you may not agree to police officers themselves being accountable and that you want to go back to the past when that was the case.

Asset recovery is raised again and again.  In this instance, the Justice Minister — I am sure that he will speak about it when he gets up — has the power to deal with asset recovery.  My party and, I believe, other parties put it to him well before that power ceased last October, I think, that he could have a bespoke process of asset recovery that would take the assets of those involved in serious and organised crime who are destroying our society.  He has refused and continues to refuse to go down the road of having an asset recovery process that can be used here.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

You are going to get up later, so by all means speak then.

Sinn Féin is up for asset recovery from those involved in serious and organised crime.

There is absolutely nothing to fear from accountability. I really do not understand what you are afraid of.  The Member spoke about the ombudsman: the easy answer to that is that that will be involved if we can get the full suite of accountability mechanisms, which was agreed in Patten and should be brought in here.  Our experience is that if you leave the loophole — there is a mass of empirical evidence — it will be abused, and that is what we are trying to avoid in this case.

I support the amendment.  We should be united, not divided, in arguing for the necessary accountability measures.

  

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

Although I disagree with the motion, I welcome the opportunity to debate this important issue and put the facts on the record.  First, the SDLP is not opposed in principle to the NCA; we would welcome its resources and so forth.  Certainly, we are not opposed to opposing criminality, whether it is organised criminality at an international level, at a national level or whatever.  We are vigorously opposed to any form of criminality and welcome resources to deal with it.

Last week in the Chamber, we debated Kincora, and there was almost unanimity on the need for an investigation of that.  It was widely accepted in the Chamber that the abuse that took place in Kincora was, in fact, covered up by the intelligence services.  It highlights the need for the accountability that was dodged and avoided at St Andrews in relation to the intelligence services, and now it is a timely reminder to the House that the issues that arose in the debate on Kincora last week are relevant to this debate as well.  Of course, we are not dealing with the intelligence services —

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

Let me get on a bit.  We are not dealing with the intelligence services per se, but we are dealing with an organisation that styles itself as the FBI of the UK. In those circumstances, you need special rules and regulations to deal with the accountability of that force in relation to Northern Ireland.  We know the history of a force within a force, the misuse of the RUC by the intelligence services, the misuse of agents and so forth.  We want to avoid that happening again, and we will be robust in defending that position.  We do not need any lectures from people on dealing with criminality — we are firm on that — but there must be accountability.

Photo of William Humphrey William Humphrey DUP

I am grateful to the Member for giving way.  He is not frightened of debate, and I welcome that.  You talk about resources being applied to dealing with the issue before the House.  The last time we debated the issue in the House, the SDLP said that it had concerns — I understand that you are articulating them now — about accountability.  You were going to have meetings with the Secretary of State and with the Justice Minister.  I ask you this, in all sincerity: how regular have those meetings been?  Are you making progress in dealing with the issues that you are concerned about?

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

I am pleased that the Member has raised those issues.  There was a very helpful letter from the Minister of Justice in relation to the NCA.  That is no secret.  In that, a number of issues were raised in it.  I am not going to disclose what discussions we have had with the Minister of Justice or, indeed, with the NCA or the Chief Constable, but I will characterise our engagements with all those people as very positive.  However, there are still issues to be addressed in relation to accountability.  Until those issues are firmly tied down, we will not be supportive of the NCA, in operational terms, in Northern Ireland.  I think that that is wise counsel.  I do not believe that that is being thran or obtuse or trying to frustrate the rule of law.  We know the history; we are right.  We are going to get this right, and it is the right approach.

Photo of Gregory Campbell Gregory Campbell DUP

I thank the Member for giving way.  He is outlining the concerns.  He says that progress is being made and that helpful meetings have been held.  Does he understand, however, that, while all those meetings are taking place, international criminal gangs are operating here in Northern Ireland, some of which could be prevented from doing so if we had the full implementation of the NCA?  Does he accept and understand that?

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

What I am saying to the House and what I understand very clearly is this: there is a problem with organised crime. We have to address that, and we will.  We have PSNI resources here addressing it but not as fully as we want.  However, as soon as there is agreement on the accountability measures that we have suggested, we will move towards that.  The point I make and emphasise to the House is that, given the experience that we have had, we have got to tie these things down firmly and clearly.  It is not right for people to simply say, "Well, look, there's the NCA.  We've got parliamentary Committees looking at the NCA, and we've got the Home Secretary and so forth".  We cannot accept that.  It must be internal to Northern Ireland.  The operations of the NCA must be subject to the PSNI and the Chief Constable and accountable to the Policing Board.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is up.

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

That is the appropriate approach.  That is what we want to see happening.

Photo of Tom Elliott Tom Elliott UUP

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker.  I am not going to give way to Mr Dickson at this stage. 

I believe that the secret is in the name: National Crime Agency.  It appears that the two nationalist or republican parties are opposed to it simply because it is a UK national crime agency.  What could be wrong with trying to curtail, cut out and stop crime?  I am not sure what the argument is about.

I heard Mr Maginness and others talk about accountability.  Let us not forget that, a number of years ago, they approved the devolution of justice here with SOCA in place.  The NCA will have much more accountability than SOCA had, so I do not see what the problem is with allowing an organisation to manage itself in Northern Ireland to beat international crime.  This is not just about local criminals and localised crime but about international crime.  This is about crime that is going on throughout the world that we can do something to stop.  Criminals will see Northern Ireland as a back door to the United Kingdom and a back door to Ireland to carry out their criminal activities, and, my goodness, have we not seen plenty of it in Northern Ireland with fuel smuggling, fuel laundering, and contraband cigarettes and alcohol?  Why do people not want to curtail that?  Why do people not want to stop human trafficking and to use the NCA as a mechanism for doing that?  I do not see why people do not want to do that.  I do not see why people want to try to curtail the process.

 

On accountability, I understand that the NCA would not have the powers of a constable in Northern Ireland.  I recognise that the two nationalist parties were willing to jump on board with Haass and approve a historical investigations unit.  As I understand it, that would have been a stand-alone police force in Northern Ireland separate from anything that you have in the Police Service of Northern Ireland.  Were there going to be accountability mechanisms there?  I never heard any of the nationalist parties argue for that in the Haass talks, not once.  So, I think that people need to get real.

Photo of Tom Elliott Tom Elliott UUP

The only argument that I hear against this from the nationalist parties is that they do not want the National Crime Agency because it is part of the UK.  What have you to fear?  I will give way to Mr Attwood.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

For the record, the Haass proposals said that the new arrangements would be accountable to the Police Ombudsman and the Policing Board.  We opposed that, because we believed that the new arrangements proposed under Haass should have their own, separate accountability mechanisms.  So, yes, we did make the argument.  Maybe on those occasions you were not listening very carefully.

Photo of Tom Elliott Tom Elliott UUP

Mr Attwood is accepting that it was going to operate separately, outside the Police Service of Northern Ireland.  He is then concerned that the NCA has accountability mechanisms to the Police Service of Northern Ireland.  What does he want?  He cannot have it every way.  He seems to want his cake and eat it, but, unfortunately, no matter what argument he puts forward, this is because it is a UK national crime agency.  That is the reality of it.  They just do not want anything that is British in Northern Ireland.  Let us get of rid it all.  Let us not have it here because it is a UK-established force.  I say this to those Members who do not want it:  what are you afraid of?  Is it maybe because it will investigate some of the criminal activities that maybe some Members in the House have a relationship with?  I do not know.  Maybe they will tell me.  There should be nothing to stop the National Crime Agency from operating to its full potential in Northern Ireland.  I think that nationalists and republicans are using excuses, and that is all that it is.

Photo of Stewart Dickson Stewart Dickson Alliance

I welcome the debate, and I want to make it very clear that we are supporting the motion and opposing the amendment.

The motion does give us an opportunity to debunk some of the myths and, indeed, fears that have been created around this particular organisation.  There is absolutely no doubt that the absence of a fully functioning National Crime Agency is negatively impacting on our ability to deal with serious and organised crime.  Clear, precise and statistical evidence is available and has been since the National Crime Agency came into being on 7 October 2013.  What bit of "Since 2013, you have had time to sort all of this out" do you not understand?

Photo of Stewart Dickson Stewart Dickson Alliance

I will come on to accountability.

The Justice Minister has said that there is now clear evidence of a major gap in our ability to tackle serious crime.  We are not isolated or immune from these problems in Northern Ireland.  There is, as others have said, people trafficking, extortion, money laundering, robbery, drug smuggling and many other serious crimes going on.  There are people in this House who, by their actions, are assisting all those crimes to take place.  Let us not put too fine a point on it:  there are people in this place who are assisting and allowing those crimes to proceed against our citizens in Northern Ireland.  Shame upon you.

There are international issues that require an international response, and the purpose of the NCA is to connect our neighbourhood policing to our national policing and our international crime-fighting agencies.  The effect of the NCA not operating was explained in more detail recently by the Minister when he told us that there are examples involving child abuse, money laundering and drug importation where the responses were arguably less effective than they could have been had we been able to join up right from the very ground, from neighbourhood policing through national policing in Northern Ireland and right across the UK, reaching right across Europe and beyond its borders. 

We have seen an effect on asset recovery.  The police are unable to target the assets of criminals.  That is less money that is being taken off criminals.  We know that the proceeds of that go to communities, but the important thing is that many criminals can only be dealt with effectively by hitting them where it hurts, and that is quite often in the pocket.  We are facing international criticism, as has been referred to, with the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child having expressed strong concerns about the absence of necessary powers to effectively address child exploitation. 

Our police resources are under strain, and we have all heard the debate around the Budget in recent days.  The effect of that and the failure to introduce the NCA has been to skew resources to the PSNI that could have been met nationally by the NCA.  You are effectively making us pay for things that other people in the rest of the United Kingdom are having paid for them through the NCA.  There is a serious and urgent need for a solution.

While it appears to me at least that Sinn Féin is beyond the pale in this debate, it is disappointing that the SDLP has still not been able to come up to the mark when it comes to acknowledging what has been done and what has been achieved since the agency came into force in 2013.  They have fears and concerns, but I believe that they have been addressed and that now is the time to accept that they have been addressed.  You cannot have everything and you will not get everything, but the time has come to accept that what is on offer is not only the best for all the citizens in Northern Ireland but substantially more than in many other regions in the rest of the United Kingdom. 

Let us be absolutely clear what has been offered.  The NCA cannot use constabulary powers without the approval of the Chief Constable.  The director general can be called to attend the Policing Board, making him answerable on how its annual plan is to be implemented, taking account of the Northern Ireland policing plan.  The Police Ombudsman's remit will cover all functions of the NCA, and the Criminal Justice Inspection's role will be extended.  It is therefore nonsensical for parties to suggest that there is lack of accountability.  There is more accountability here than in any other part of the United Kingdom.

Photo of Gregory Campbell Gregory Campbell DUP

I thank the Member for giving way.  I am glad that he is outlining the degree of accountability that exists.  It is just unfortunate that the mover of the amendment has absented himself from the Chamber.  He outlined the exact opposite and said that there is no accountability.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member has almost a minute left.

Photo of Stewart Dickson Stewart Dickson Alliance

I wholeheartedly agree with Mr Campbell.  Indeed, it is increasingly looking like a deliberate plan to oppose the NCA in all circumstances rather than to accept —

Photo of Stewart Dickson Stewart Dickson Alliance

I would have except that the Speaker has only given me one minute and I need to finish this.

It is looking like a deliberate plan to oppose the NCA and its operation in Northern Ireland in all circumstances.  Members now need to show maturity and recognise the significant package that is on offer.  I encourage Mr Maginness and others to weigh up what is now being offered.  You are not going to cross every t and dot every last i when it comes to this.  What is on your shopping list is not necessarily on everybody else's shopping list.  There are many in the community —

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is up.

Photo of Stewart Dickson Stewart Dickson Alliance

— who will ask, after this debate, why the SDLP is acting so unreasonably and not picking up on what has been offered to defend all our citizens, which is the introduction of the NCA.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

Tomorrow is the first anniversary of the National Crime Agency.  Unfortunately, the only people celebrating will be the criminals involved in human trafficking, drug dealing and some of the vilest crimes that they can inflict on our people in Northern Ireland.  People should remember who benefits most from the inability of the SDLP and Sinn Féin to deal maturely and responsibly with the issue.  It is no surprise that Sinn Féin cannot do so, but the SDLP is letting down the people of Northern Ireland because of its inability to step out from the shadow that Sinn Féin cast upon it.  For too long, they have kowtowed to Sinn Féin on a whole range of policy matters, and here they are doing exactly the same when it comes to policing.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

I will give way to Mr Maginness.

Photo of Alban Maginness Alban Maginness Social Democratic and Labour Party

As a simple matter of history, the SDLP joined the Policing Board in 2001; and, in 2007, Sinn Féin joined the Policing Board in the wake of the SDLP and on the basis of the good work that the SDLP had done to build up the PSNI.  That is history, so we are not in the shadow of Sinn Féin whatsoever.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

Ever since Sinn Féin eclipsed the SDLP in electoral terms, the SDLP has done nothing to try to differentiate itself from the largest nationalist party, and it is time that it started to do that.

Members have highlighted the fact the NCA will not have constabulary powers unless the Chief Constable grants it those powers.  The new beginning to policing that Sinn Féin and the SDLP talked about included the Serious Organised Crime Agency continuing to function.  The devolution of justice allowed the Serious Organised Crime Agency to continue to function, but now that SOCA has been dismissed and the NCA has come in, they want to revisit all of this and wind the clock back.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

No, I will not give way again; I want to make some progress. 

Either the two parties got it wrong in the first place and should admit that they got it wrong when they set up the Policing Board and those structures, or they are misleading people by the arguments that they are making here today.  Members need to be very serious about this issue because we are talking about serious crime. 

Sinn Féin and the SDLP often use the United Nations to advance their progressive, as they deem them, human rights policies.  Yet here we have the UN highlighting a serious concern about the rights of children, and they just dismiss what it has to say.  I am not usually an advocate of the United Nations, but, on this occasion, it is right.  Members who usually support the UN should take some cognisance of what it has to say.

Then we have the PSNI budget and the strain that it is under.  Mr Kelly, who is no longer here, interestingly, refused to engage in debate and has now run away, not for the first time, from the debate.  He and Mr Maginness continually talk about the cost of policing Twaddell, for example, and yet here we have Westminster wanting to pay for policing in Northern Ireland.  However, the nationalist parties are saying that they do not want Westminster to pay for that.  When it comes to welfare reform, Westminster needs to open up the coffers and give them the money.  They want Westminster then, but when it comes to policing, they do not want the support of a national body.  They would rather that the PSNI, which does not have the resources or, let us be clear, the same expertise and specialism as the National Crime Agency in dealing with matters of human trafficking and child exploitation —

Photo of Robin Newton Robin Newton DUP

I thank the Member for giving way.  My point specifically relates to the point that he is making about the lack of information.  Does he agree that, had the unfortunate people in the Tilbury docks incident not created a row and the container had completed its journey, it is unlikely that the information would have been available within the PSNI to pick up, arrest and take before the courts those now alleged to have been involved?

  

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP 1:15, 6 October 2014

I agree.  The Member brings us back to a very important point:  we are talking about human lives.  This is not some technical bureaucratic matter; it is about the impact on real people through not being able to effectively tackle those who are involved in serious organised crime. 

As Members rightly highlighted, the NCA currently operates in Northern Ireland but is not subject to the levels of accountability that Members would want.  Again, I was not a proponent of setting up the Police Ombudsman's office, but that office would, under these proposals brought forward by the Minister, be able to hold the NCA to account on devolved and non-devolved matters. 

There has got to be a point at which people realise that there is a compromise on the table.  I would suggest that the compromise nearly goes too far, but we do not always get everything that we want.  Members need to recognise that this is as good as it is going to get.  There will not be any point in the NCA being in existence if Members want to thwart its ability to tackle crime. 

We need to bring this matter to a conclusion.  I ask the Minister to bring forward the legislative consent motion (LCM) that is necessary.  If he cannot do it, I will work with the Alliance Party and one of its members to bring an LCM to this House.  Let us have the debate and let us have the vote on this issue.  I trust that Members would not abuse the petition of concern if it came to that point.

Photo of Sean Lynch Sean Lynch Sinn Féin

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle.  I oppose the motion but support the amendment

Let me deal with the first part of the motion:

"That this Assembly condemns the increasing number of illegal activities being carried out by organised criminal gangs".

Sinn Féin totally supports that part of the motion.  We have consistently condemned criminal activity.  Communities have a right to live in a safe environment, not to be impacted upon by these criminal gangs and to feel secure and safe in their homes.  However, communities and citizens must be protected through the oversight and accountability of law enforcement agencies.  This is the crux of the issue.  The NCA, fully implemented in the North of Ireland, will, in effect, be accountable to the Home Secretary and not the Policing Board

As recently as last week, the Minister responded to my colleague Raymond McCartney on the issue of tackling serious crime, and on making the NCA effective and, most importantly, making it accountable.  The Minister said nothing to explain why he believes that all members of the NCA should be subject to the same accountability structures as all members of the PSNI.

Photo of Sean Lynch Sean Lynch Sinn Féin

No.  You will have your say, Minister

No real claim has been made to date to demonstrate that policing serious and organised crime will be ineffective if the NCA is not fully implemented.

Photo of Robin Newton Robin Newton DUP

Will the Member give way?

Photo of Sean Lynch Sean Lynch Sinn Féin

No.  If your name is down, you will have your five minutes. 

Indeed, there has been opposition to the present NCA model from former senior officers.  In reading part of the motion, one would be led to believe that, unless the NCA is not fully involved in this part of Ireland, society will be left to the complete mercy of these gangs.  What is the role of the PSNI in tackling organised criminal activity?  This is a service that has a budget of almost £1 billion and 7,000 personnel.  On the other hand, in the South of Ireland, an Garda Síochána polices four-fifths of this island with a similar budget and under 12,000 personnel.  It has to deal with similar organised activity. 

The parties opposite argue that, if the NCA is not established in full, there will be limited access to NCA intelligence.  That is not true.  The previous Chief Constable, Matt Baggott, in answering a question from Pat Sheehan at a Policing Board meeting about whether there would be any restrictions on information-sharing between any of the law enforcement agencies on these islands, answered with an emphatic no.  As my colleague Gerry Kelly said in his speech, only last week, we had a good example of this type of sharing of information, where the gardaí arrested a number of criminals off the coast of Cork and captured one of the biggest hauls of cocaine ever in these islands.  This was a joint task force involving the Air Corps, revenue services, naval services and the gardaí.

Mr Liam Peakin, the head of the Irish Customs Drug Watch and Law Enforcement department, said afterwards that they have the resources to tackle major drug dealers and that it was an international intelligence-led operation that involved agencies outside Ireland.

Photo of Sean Lynch Sean Lynch Sinn Féin

No.  That confirmed the point that Matt Baggott made to Pat Sheehan last year.  During the arrests and seizure in Cork, the guards were in total control of the operation on Irish soil.  There is no bigger crime than trying to land £100 million worth of cocaine in this country, North or South.

I want to close on the aspect of the motion that calls for the full implementation of the NCA to:

"help deal with this problem which is particularly prevalent in border areas."

I live close to Monaghan, Cavan and Leitrim and meet senior PSNI officers regularly.  There is no evidence that major organised crime is greater in that region.  One of the organised activities in the area is livestock and farm machinery theft.  Only last week —

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is almost up.

Photo of Sean Lynch Sean Lynch Sinn Féin

— the gardaí were successful in an operation against those who are involved in that in County Monaghan, using information from the PSNI.  The law enforcement agencies on the island of Ireland are capable of tackling serious and organised criminality without the full involvement —

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is up.

Photo of Sean Lynch Sean Lynch Sinn Féin

— of the unaccountable NCA.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is up.  Thank you.

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

It was an interesting line that the previous Member who spoke took.  He seemed to support cuts to policing and railed against everything that was suggested last week about the pressures that police would be put under.  He has made it very clear that Sinn Féin thinks that we can do with considerably less police and the services they provide in Northern Ireland.  I am interested in hearing that argument develop over the next number of days.

The Assembly does not often bring good news to people, but good news is going out today.  There is good news for fuel launderers, cigarette and alcohol smugglers, drug barons, pimps, human traffickers, gangmasters, fraudsters, those who are wrecking our environment through illegal dumping and, of course, the paramilitary organisations.  They are getting that good news free and gratis from none other than Sinn Féin — we would well expect them to give them that good news — and the SDLP.  They are hiding behind a fig leaf of accountability, but, behind their fig leaf, all we see is nakedness.  They have no real substance to their argument, and all those whom I named will be better off as a consequence of their activities.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Treasury)

I am sure that the Member is not surprised that Sinn Féin wants to protect criminals, especially since most of the criminals who have been referred to were probably their compatriots not so long ago.  Does he find it surprising that the SDLP is complicit in that protection of criminals in Northern Ireland and is allowing them to walk away with ill-gotten gains and terrorise the communities in which they operate?

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

I know that the public will be hugely disappointed.  For a considerable period of time, the SDLP have positioned themselves as the stooges of Sinn Féin.  They will never separate themselves from Sinn Féin on any of the big issues.  They are like rabbits caught in the headlights.

Photo of Joe Byrne Joe Byrne Social Democratic and Labour Party

I thank Mr Poots for giving way.  Would he accept that it is virtually impossible to run a family-owned private business in parts of Belfast in the pub trade, the fuel business or in amusement arcades?  We have the abuse of an official mechanism known as the national charities registry.  Fronts for paramilitaries on both sides have become legitimised and a blind eye is being turned to that.  We want the NCA to be effective in that regard as well as on the other issues and to have real accountability.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member has an extra minute

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

Of course I agree with the Member.  That is why we want it to happen.  That is why we need it to happen.  The Member has stated very clearly that the current arrangements are ineffective.  Meanwhile, the SDLP are wringing their hands and saying that they cannot change it because we do not have as much accountability for the NCA as we have for the PSNI.  It is not that we do not have accountability.  It is that we do not have as much accountability as we have —

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

— no, I am not giving way again, Mr Byrne —  with the PSNI.  We really need to move ahead with this, and the SDLP needs to look at themselves and who they are is lining up with on this.  They are lining up with Sinn Féin and all of the other people that I named at the start.  The SDLP needs to reconsider their position.  If they have genuine concerns, get them dealt with and let us move on.  This business of carrying on and on and on, and delaying, delaying and delaying is brilliant news for all those criminals and gangsters out there.

Photo of Paul Frew Paul Frew DUP

I thank the Member for giving way.  May I ask a question about the SDLP fighting for accountability?  Does the Member know how accountable accountability is?  At what cost will that come when we look at criminals who will be able to infiltrate Northern Ireland?

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

Accountability is certainly being placed on a pedestal well above actually catching criminals.  The public are fed up.   I remember, when I was Minister of the Environment, going to Newry and Mourne District Council, and it was fed up with having to clean up the aftermath of fuel launderers who left materials and toxic waste dumped at the side of the road.  The council had to spend £1,000 a ton to get rid of it.  They are fed up with it.  The public are fed up with people having fuel laundering plants dismantled, but nobody ever appearing to be arrested.  Who is operating these fuel laundering plants?  We need to go after these people in a serious way and ensure that all of the tools are used to tackle it. 

The public are fed up with illegal dumps across Northern Ireland, and we do not have that specialist service and support from the National Crime Agency.  The public are fed up with the human trafficking that is taking place; with the young girls that are being brought into prostitution and who are being used and abused; with the people who are working in the back streets as cheap labour for gangmasters.  We need all the resource that we can get to support us.

George Hamilton made it abundantly clear last week that he does not have that resource.  There is the opportunity for us to introduce additional resource to Northern Ireland.  There is the opportunity for those people to be held to account —

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is almost up.

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

— in a number of different ways.  Get on board, and let us get this organisation in here and get its help.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

Whilst he did not realise it, Mr Poots has just made my argument.  He went on and on — rightly — about illegal fuel dumps.  He said, "Sign up to the NCA, because that will deal with it."  Explain, then, why, despite the efforts of the PSNI, SOCA and other agencies on this island, virtually nobody has ever been before a criminal court in relation to such matters?  If you want us to support the NCA, it has a responsibility to us — to everybody — to prove that it will go after fuel launderers. 

The biggest waste dump in the history of these islands lies two miles outside Derry, on top of the River Faughan.  Those responsible for it got £50 million out of that dump.  It will cost £110 million to clean it up, and that is independent of any leachate that is likely to gush into the River Faughan and the River Foyle, and yet —

Photo of Robin Newton Robin Newton DUP

Will the Member give way?

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

Not to you.  I will give way to other people. [Laughter.] He knows why.  That Member knows why.

Yet the police knew nothing about it.  The Serious Organised Crime Agency knew nothing about it.  It was not on the radar of the organisation that David Ford chairs, namely the Organised Crime Task Force.  Nobody knew about the biggest waste dump in the history of these islands.  So we have asked the NCA this:  convince us that those responsible for that — the organised crime on the island of Ireland — will never again be able to get away with something like that.  Show us that all those private arrangements that SOCA enters into — probably not many — are approved by the High Court and that that will become the rule of thumb of the NCA.  That is the way to deal with organised crime — by going after all of those involved and ensuring that there are no no-go zones when it comes to organised crime.

Let me explain. [Interruption.] You might laugh.  I will give way to you if you have any questions.

  

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin 1:30, 6 October 2014

Mr Attwood, I may not be able to award you an extra minute if you take interventions.  The same goes for Members who speak after you.  I am bound by the Business Committee's ruling on the timing of the debate.  It is your choice.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

I was not aware of that ruling.  I will check the Speaker's rulings, as I have tended to do.

Let me deal with the issue of the SDLP approach.  When it was right to move on policing because the accountability threshold was sufficient, we moved on policing.  Why is accountability so important?  It is not technical, which is how Mr Givan referred to it.  Accountability is the method of ensuring that an organisation accounts for its practices.  In that moment, you win community confidence.  Any police officer, NCA official or anybody involved in crime enforcement will tell you that community intelligence is at the heart of good attacks on crime.  By having proper accountability, you have the mechanisms to ensure that, when the community has doubts, it can have confidence and, when the community has confidence, it provides information and intelligence to the crime agencies, including the NCA.

Paragraph 13 of the Minister's paper says that the Police Service, by giving agreement to operations, becomes accountable to the board for that activity.  Does that or does that not mean that all the board's accountability mechanisms — public sessions, private sessions, special committees, section 59 and section 60 requests and all the other arrangements of policing that the SDLP negotiated — will be in place in respect of the NCA? Paragraph 10 of the paper says that the NCA will be required to secure the agreement of the PSNI prior to commencing covert investigations.  Does that or does that not mean that all agents involved in that activity will be subject to PSNI requirements?  If the PSNI says that they are vetoed, will that mean vetoed, rather than vetoed to a degree?  Paragraph 25 is the elephant in the room.  Is it credible in this day and age for a Home Secretary, by order, to say that the NCA shall deal with counterterrorism, that there is no role for the Executive or the Policing Board in the North, with all our experience —

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is up.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

— with the security agency and policing in the past?  I ask those questions to represent our concerns.

Photo of Mike Nesbitt Mike Nesbitt UUP

The Home Secretary established the National Crime Agency in 2010.  Its purpose is:

"to lead the UK's fight to cut serious and organised crime."

I repeat: "the UK's fight". According to the NCA, serious and:

"Organised crime is one of the greatest threats to the UK's national security."

I repeat: "the UK's national security". It is an organisation designed to have national and international reach.  It is meant to have:

"the mandate and powers to work in partnership with other law enforcement organisations to bring the full weight of the law to bear in cutting serious and organised crime."

The problem is that the national reach is restricted here in Northern Ireland. The NCA does not have the same mandate and powers in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom.  The problem is that it cannot bring the full weight of the law to bear on criminals based here. Those dedicated to child abuse or child exploitation or those who make a twisted living from cybercrime, drugs and the rest find Northern Ireland an attractive place to base themselves.

The NCA is designed to respond on a 24/7 basis.  It has three tools in its armoury: it conducts its own operations, it provides operational and specialist support to its partners and it provides clear national leadership that ensures that the UK's law enforcement makes the best of its collective resources.  Given that we all woke up this morning to the latest example of how our Budget is broken, with the cuts in the events budget, what responsible politician would not want the full resources of the NCA in play in Northern Ireland?  Who, other than the organised criminals themselves, could object to the PSNI being able to call on the expertise of such a body? It is not as if the PSNI has access to the same expertise and specialist knowledge within its own ranks.  Even if it did, only last week, the Chief Constable laid out starkly the seriousness of the situation facing the PSNI and its service delivery, following the latest round of budget cuts.  Speaking on Thursday, George Hamilton made it clear that the cuts would make the PSNI "unrecognisable".   He said that he had been pushed into a "virtually impossible" position and that there would be fewer officers, longer waiting times for non-emergency calls and possibly compulsory retirements.   Quite simply, the PSNI and Northern Ireland plc need the National Crime Agency. If it is OK for the NCA to lift suspected child abusers in England, Scotland and Wales, why is it not OK for them to do it in Northern Ireland?  Why do they have to ask the Chief Constable to eat into his overstretched resources to make those arrests in this part of the United Kingdom?

Opposition to the NCA has been couched in terms of concerns about oversight arrangements, but many people — not all of them unionist — have grave concerns that that opposition is rooted more in a nationalist ideological opposition to a UK-wide body operating in this part of the United Kingdom. As Mr Elliott reminded the House, when the proposals for dealing with the past were brought forward by Richard Haass, nationalists seemed happy for a new, separate police force operating here called the historical investigations unit (HIU).  That would have been utterly unaccountable to the PSNI. It would have been OK for the HIU to do its own thing but not the NCA. Opponents may argue that there was more chance of the NCA and the PSNI investigating the same individuals at the same time for different reasons, but no one can tell me that there was not a chance that the HIU and the PSNI would also have investigated the same individuals at the same time, each ignorant of the other's intent and therefore each capable of derailing the other's investigation.

The bottom line is that Northern Ireland and its people do not enjoy the same protection as the rest of the United Kingdom, and that is not acceptable.  Police assessments state that there are 140 gangs operating in Northern Ireland.  The Ulster Unionist Party wants to see the PSNI given access to every possible resource as it works day and daily to fight crime and protect our people.  There is no question whatsoever that opposition from the SDLP and Sinn Féin is severely limiting how much the NCA can do in Northern Ireland.  On that basis, we reject the amendment and support the motion.

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

I welcome the fact that we have the motion before the House today, as I am glad of the opportunity to share with Members the difficulties being faced by law enforcement agencies because of the ongoing situation with the non-operability in the devolved sphere of the National Crime Agency.

  

As has already been highlighted — Mr Givan referred to the first birthday being tomorrow — the NCA came into operation on 7 October last year, and we have still to reach agreement on its powers extending fully here with appropriate accountability mechanisms.

I have been having talks in recent weeks with most of the Executive parties on the proposal paper that I put forward.  There is a significant gap in our law enforcement ability, as anyone who read the Chief Constable's recent comments in the 'Belfast Telegraph' would have seen.  It concerns me, as Justice Minister, that we do not have access to the skills and expertise that are available from the NCA and are not easily available to the PSNI. These are not issues of minor crime; they are issues of serious and organised crime both in Northern Ireland and with a reach across these islands and the world.

Recent PSNI figures estimate that 140 to 160 organised crime groups are active in Northern Ireland and there are 800 active criminals.  We have had descriptions from different parts of the House of the impacts of organised crime, whether it be drug dealing, fuel laundering, waste dumping or the increasing problem of cybercrime, on which there is a very limited pool of expertise to tackle it at the highest level.  We all know, because we discuss it frequently in the House, the damage that human trafficking does: it destroys lives.  Northern Ireland is both a transit country and a destination for many traffickers. I believe that the PSNI does an excellent job, but there is no doubt that, once criminals start operating across jurisdictions and international boundaries, as many crime groups do, it needs the support of the NCA, just as the Irish authorities — we had a list from Mr Lynch of all the Irish authorities involved — benefited from that support from the NCA recently when they seized the yacht carrying a significant amount of cocaine.  The amount seems to inflate as the debate goes on.  I am not sure that it has reached £100 million yet, but it was a significant and serious issue. There is a certain irony that an Garda Síochána can benefit from the full cooperation of the NCA to deal with arresting the occupants of a yacht off the waters of County Cork while some Members of the House will stop the PSNI getting the full benefit.  What is even more ironic is that Gerry Kelly, who is, of course, not present in the House, managed to highlight that as one of the specific issues.  If I were Gerry Kelly, I would not have scored an own goal like that.

On a resource level, there is absolutely no doubt that, at a time of increasing pressures, the PSNI must be able to tap into the resources that the NCA can provide to undertake or assist in operations.  If the PSNI cannot access those resources, we will see officers being redeployed from the crimes that they should be dealing with in the purely devolved, local criminal sphere to deal with the organised issues.  NCA officers are currently sitting in Belfast doing back-office work for police services in England, Wales and Scotland because they are not allowed to be operational here.  That, at a time of increasing pressures, is utterly ridiculous.

Many Members will have seen the paper that the Chief Constable circulated after he received it from the director general of the National Crime Agency.  The paper looked at some of the issues for which we have simply not got the resources that we need to deal with organised crime.  I highlighted that at Question Time last week, but let me refer to just a few of those points. Operation Notarise, the UK-wide operation against online child abuse, could not get direct support from NCA officers in Northern Ireland.  The PSNI had to carry out the duties that were performed by NCA officers elsewhere, on the basis that the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre has been absorbed into the NCA.  That is where the UK-wide expertise is, yet those officers cannot be operational on the ground in Northern Ireland. We had an issue of money laundering using pre-payment cards where there was serious need for a complex financial investigation, which, again, is part of the NCA's expertise, but it could not be provided.

Mr Attwood highlighted the issue of the largest waste dump found, I think, anywhere on these islands, on the banks of the Faughan.  The NCA was unable to continue the assistance that SOCA gave in the early stages with financial investigations, because it was a devolved issue and the NCA could not continue to provide that support.

Photo of Edwin Poots Edwin Poots DUP

Mr Attwood was also responsible for an organisation called the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA), which had a key role to play in that. For him simply to place the blame on the National Crime Agency, which did not have the powers to act, is wholly spurious.

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

What I want to see —

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

Aw, come on. [Laughter.] I want to see all the relevant agencies joining together in the way that the NIEA was able to send people to the next meeting of the Organised Crime Task Force to discuss some of those issues.  Unfortunately, that assistance could not continue.  I give way.

Photo of Dolores Kelly Dolores Kelly Social Democratic and Labour Party

Thank you, Minister.  What is totally spurious, of course, was Mr Poots's allegation.  As the Minister will know, it was Mr Attwood and the NIEA that highlighted that waste dump, and the NIEA brought to bear its full powers on that.

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

Yes, but the point that I am trying to make about joining up is that the NIEA had the duty to identify it, because that is its specific role, but the financial expertise was best available from SOCA, which was then absorbed into the NCA, and that expertise could not continue from within the NCA. We will call that a score draw between Mrs Kelly and Mr Poots.

One other issue that I highlighted last week was the NCA requiring PSNI assistance to search the homes of suspected drug dealers.  Other serious incidents under way meant that the PSNI could not respond as quickly as it had hoped in circumstances that may have led to evidence being removed.  If the NCA had operational officers here, that work would have been carried out by them. We have already seen the issue of the PSNI losing officers to cover work that the NCA would do otherwise, but in terms of priorities and the difficult pressures that the PSNI is under, as the current budget changes come through, it becomes increasingly difficult for the PSNI to do what is its responsibility, without also carrying out the NCA's responsibility, and to provide the services that our people expect.

I mentioned it earlier, but let us repeat it: the NCA is the UK centre of expertise in many areas around cybercrime and, in particular, child exploitation online.  Those areas cause huge concerns to the people of Northern Ireland.  They are areas where the NCA can give arm's-length advice and assistance.  The kind of line that was coming from the Sinn Féin Benches was that they can help and they can provide the information.  Sure they can, but they cannot put operational officers on the ground — the people who have the direct experience — to go in and investigate what is happening.  They have to pass the information on to the PSNI, and the PSNI then has the obligation to carry things through, whereas the expertise and the information reside with NCA.

Of course, one of the key issues is around civil recovery, on which there was a noticeable reluctance on Mr Kelly's part to take any intervention, because it is really the intervention to target the assets of local criminals.  That has been lost since 7 October last year.  It has not been hampered or reduced and nor does it require additional resources — it has been lost.  Mr Kelly spoke about the idea of setting up a separate body for Northern Ireland.  Gee, look at the successes we have had on legislation in this place around contentious issues.  We have just introduced the Education Bill about three years later than it should have been introduced.  If education is contentious, heaven spare us from what would happen if we were required to do separate legislation for our own bespoke body.  There is a body that is capable of carrying out civil recovery: the NCA.  It is operational in England, Wales and Scotland, and it needs to be operational here to tackle the organised criminals who seek to secrete assets in Northern Ireland.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Treasury)

Does the Minister also accept that setting up a separate body involves additional cost?  It still means that there has to be liaison with another body and that is where the gaps in effectiveness fall in dealing with crime that is seamless across international borders.

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

Agreed entirely.  I was trying to get on and not mention everything, but I am sure that, to the people we represent, the idea of criminals living with their assets secreted in Northern Ireland in lives of luxury, in the middle of what this society is going through, is utterly unacceptable. It is not just people living the life of luxury; it is luxury derived from the misery of other people. At the moment we are doing nothing to tackle it in this jurisdiction. Those are reasons why I believe that we must get the issue of the NCA resolved urgently.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

Is the Minister able to quantify the millions of pounds — just so that we can crystallise the issue for the public — and the extent to which criminals are benefiting and have that money in their back pocket?  It would appear that it is not just the millions of pounds they have in their back pocket; it is Sinn Féin and the SDLP as well.

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

In brief, the figures show that, last year, there was something like £19 million under investigation in Northern Ireland.  This year, it is down to eight-point-something million pounds.  I do not have the figures immediately in front of me, but those are roughly accurate.

The proposal that I put forward involved detailed work with the Home Office, the NCA, the Northern Ireland Office, the PSNI and others.  In my view, it set out extensive accountability arrangements in line with local requirements and represents a sound and final proposal to enable progress.  It represents a realistic, achievable framework.  The question is what sort of society we want.  Do we want to hamper law enforcement when there is a sensible package available for help?

We had a lot of naysaying in the debate.  I will come on to some of the comments that were made by Mr Attwood in particular in a moment, but there was a lot of naysaying from Sinn Féin with absolutely nothing specific. Indeed, Gerry Kelly, in saying nothing at all specific, showed such confidence in his argument that he did not accept a single intervention from any other Member during his 10 minutes.  That is an indication of a man who has real confidence in the argument that he is putting forward — real confidence that he has got it right and can deal with interventions from anybody else.

If the situation is not resolved soon, we will have to make arrangements to fill the gaps, because we will have to accept failure. I do not believe that the Assembly should accept failure in this area.  I trust that all Members will agree to the motion, and I will certainly oppose the amendment as it is currently formulated, because I believe that it is flawed.

The law already has many different requirements for the NCA because it is a body in Westminster and accountable to the Home Secretary.  I will take a quick intervention.

Photo of Gregory Campbell Gregory Campbell DUP

The Minister talked about taking steps to fill the gaps.  Has he any idea of the cost implications of those measures?

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

I think that the technical term is "quite horrific".

The amendment refers to accountability.  Let us unpack this and look at what we have. We have the accountability of the NCA to the Policing Board.  The director general is required to attend meetings of the Policing Board on request; to consult the board on, and seek its prior consent to, his plans; and to take account of the board's policing plan.  The NCA could not exercise constabulary powers or covert investigation powers without the agreement of the Chief Constable.  Let me repeat that:  the NCA could not exercise those powers without the agreement of the Chief Constable, and the Chief Constable is accountable to the board.

Unlike SOCA, all the NCA's functions, as highlighted earlier, would be subject to investigation by the Police Ombudsman.  There would be, through the Police Ombudsman, accountability for all devolved, non-devolved and civil recovery issues.  In addition, Criminal Justice Inspection would cover the NCA, as would Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC).  So let us not pretend that there is insufficient accountability.  I believe that the accountability certainly exceeds that in the rest of the UK and, arguably, in some areas, that of the PSNI.

 

Mr Attwood made three specific points relating to the paper that I circulated earlier.  Let me just respond briefly.  He referred to paragraph 13, where it is clear that the accountability of the NCA is to the Chief Constable and the board.  Paragraph 10 deals with covert operations and makes it clear that they would be only by agreement with the Chief Constable and subject to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) and the Police Act 2000.  Mr Attwood also referred to paragraph 25.  I believe that the Department of Justice is bound by annex E to the St Andrews Agreement, which clearly shows how that would be carried through.  Indeed, the suggestion from the Home Secretary is that an issue of national intelligence would be carried through only for England and Wales.  So there are very clear points there.  However, I am grateful that Mr Attwood — unlike Sinn Féin Members — at least put forward some specific concerns and that there has been engagement with the SDLP.  I trust that we will very shortly wrap up those final issues.

I also had concerns when I first heard of the Home Secretary's plans for the NCA.  That is why I sought and achieved many changes in its operations, and significant discussion has been going on.  However, we are now at the end of the road.  It is time that Members accepted that we have a good deal.  We should resolve these final issues that need to be tweaked; reject the amendment; and pass the motion and the LCM to ensure that we get the benefit of NCA to protect the people of Northern Ireland.

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an rúin agus ag tabhairt tacaíochta don leasú.  I support the amendment and opposed the motion.  Let me say first that Gerry Kelly was called away on an urgent matter.  I notice that others who made contributions also left the Chamber, but the Minister did not draw any inference from the fact that Alex Attwood was not here.

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

I have five minutes, and I am not giving way.

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

Gerry Kelly did not apologise to you, perhaps because he did not have the chance to do so, but I noticed that you drew no inference from the fact that Alex Attwood was not here, nor did you say that he had apologised to you.  I find you very defensive on this issue.  At the core — [Interruption.]

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Treasury)

You still have a rubbish argument

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

At the core of the debate is accountability, and it is very interesting that most of the Members who spoke today ignored it or tried to suggest that the demand for accountability was not realistic.  I think that the Minister said that it was not realistic.  It is realistic, and the reason is that, as we know from history and now from current practice, one of the fundamental building blocks of the positive changes made to policing in order to ensure that we did not repeat the mistakes of the past was proper and effective accountability.

I noticed that, when Tom Elliott was speaking, he made some reference to the sort of idea that because it is called "National", the opposition that is coming from Sinn Féin and indeed, as he said, the SDLP was for that result, but I think that he forgot to accept that, if the secret is in the title, it is also in the title of the Assembly that we are in.  This is a legislative Assembly.  We make legislation for the people whom we represent.  That is what we will do.  We will make legislation that is relevant to the experience of the people whom we represent.  Other people can ignore that.  Other people can look to other places to get their lead.  We will not.  We will be consistent in everything that we do.  I notice that Stewart —

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

No.  I have already said that I have five minutes and I will not get any extra time.  It is limited as it is.  That, to us, is the core matter.  Indeed, even when the Minister was speaking, I think that he accepted that the standards of accountability have made the PSNI a police service that now enjoys the support of people in the North of Ireland.  He accepts that the NCA will not be subject to the same level of accountability.

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

No, I will not give way because —

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker.  Is it in order for a Member to state what somebody else said inaccurately and then refuse to take a point of information?

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

It is, in fact, a matter for the Member speaking speaker as to whether they give way.  Hansard will satisfy everyone as to what was said and who said it.

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

Perhaps Hansard will record what was said and also what was said when I asked that question during last week's Question Time.  I asked the Minister whether the NCA was subject to the same accountability mechanisms as the PSNI and he told me that it was not.  Maybe, sometimes, when people speak, the metamorphosis comes out and you hear it in a different way.  That is what I heard this afternoon and it is what I heard last week.  That is what I am saying.  If the Minister wants to contradict that, he can.  Are those who are operating in the field, in operations and carrying out investigations, subject to the exact same accountability mechanisms as all PSNI officers?  Is it or is it not the case?  Silence, as Father Ted once said — [Interruption.]

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

If you want, I will give way, yes. [Interruption.]

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

Sorry, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I was so shocked that any member of Sinn Féin was actually giving way in this debate that I thought it was yet another rhetorical question.  I am grateful to the Member for finally getting round to the point of accepting that there is an issue for debate.  Of course, somebody who is a member of the National Crime Agency does not have identical accountability mechanisms to those which apply to members of the PSNI, but I have listed all the ways in which they are as close as they can be given that it is a UK-wide body.  I listed the accountability mechanisms to the Policing Board, the ombudsman, CJINI, HMIC and everybody you could think of.

Photo of Raymond McCartney Raymond McCartney Sinn Féin

I suppose that now when the Minister has been asked to reflect on the point of order, he will reflect on whether he actually agrees with what I said despite the fact that he said that I misquoted him.  It is very simple.  People can call it a fig leaf.  They can call it whatever they want.  We will not sign up to any body that does not have the same accountability mechanisms as the PSNI.  We will not allow the failings of the past to be repeated and revisited here.  That is our job.  That is our task.  That is what we are elected to do.  We make no apology for that, nor will we allow inferences or snide remarks to deflect us from what we do.  We are here to represent the people who put us here.  There will be proper accountability for all policing structures in the North while Sinn Féin has the powers to do anything about it.  Go raibh míle maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

Question Time will commence shortly.  We will conclude the debate after Question Time.  Members may take their ease while we change the top table.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair)