Scottish Referendum Result

Matter of the Day – in the Northern Ireland Assembly at on 22 September 2014.

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Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Speaker has agreed that this matter was brought forward in the appropriate fashion.  Mr Mike Nesbitt has been given leave to make a statement on the Scottish referendum result, which fulfils the criteria as set out in Standing Order 24.  If other Members wish to be called, they should indicate that by rising in their places and continuing to do so.  All Members called will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject.  I remind Members that I will not take any points of order on this or any other matter until the item of business has finished.

Photo of Mike Nesbitt Mike Nesbitt UUP

I begin by repeating this party's best wishes to Speaker Hay for a full and speedy recovery.

I believe that it would be remiss for the House not to mark one of the most important constitutional votes anywhere in these islands in the last 300 years.  Obviously, as unionists, we rejoice in and are delighted with the result.  The case for Scottish independence was never made, and common sense has prevailed.

The links between Scotland and Northern Ireland cross every strand of our existence:  cultural, sporting, political, economic.  Earlier today, I was sent a construction assessment that stated that £7 billion of construction contracts were on hold as companies waited for the result of the independence vote, and local construction and engineering companies would no doubt have been among those that would have lost out had the vote been pro-independence.

During the campaign, I was dismayed to hear a leading proponent of independence criticise the Better Together campaign for patronising the Scots.  He argued, "Didn't we, the Scots, bring the world the scientific and intellectual liberation called the Enlightenment?"  It is a half-truth, and that is a dangerous thing, of course, because the man who inspired the Scottish Enlightenment was not a Scot but was Francis Hutcheson from Saintfield in County Down, who was born in 1694 to a family of Scottish-Irish descent.  He was a man of immeasurable influence, counting among his students Adam Smith, who wrote 'The Wealth of Nations', and David Hume, who famously argued that desire rather than reason governed human nature. 

Francis Hutcheson makes a case regarding ties that are rooted in that most important of all commodities:  blood ties.  Scots came to Ireland to become the Ulster Scots.  They moved further west to become what the Americans now call the Scots-Irish, and the Scots-Irish have provided no fewer than 17 of the United States' 44 presidents.  Admittedly, some may have slightly more tangential links than others, but the point is this:  for countries the size of postage stamps on the world stage, Northern Ireland and Scotland together punch very much above their weight.

The United Kingdom is a family of nations.  We are united through social, economic and cultural ties.  We have a joint history of standing up for the weak and of facing down tyranny.  It is a history that can never be erased and that will, I believe, continue to bind us together.  Let us now go forward proudly and confidently into the inevitable debate that is coming concerning how we build an even better and greater Britain that is fit for the 21st century and a United Kingdom of which Northern Ireland is more solidly a part than ever before.

Photo of Gregory Campbell Gregory Campbell DUP

Like Mr Nesbitt, I join in recognition of the decision by the people of Scotland to vote in the way that they did.  That said, I and others made it very clear throughout the campaign and even before it started that it was entirely and exclusively a matter for the people of Scotland to decide on.  Now that they have done so, it is appropriate that we should comment on that and, more importantly, outline what we see as our vision for the way forward with Scotland as a part of the United Kingdom.

The voting in the two principal cities is no coincidence in that the relatively more affluent Edinburgh was 61% no and the relatively less affluent Glasgow was 53% yes.  The referendum was more to do with disaffection from central government and the sense of economic isolation from the south-east of England, and that can resonate with people in Northern Ireland.

Whatever the reasons, the people of Scotland have spoken and settled the matter.  Now that they have, the issue becomes a UK-wide one, and the Prime Minister indicated his intention to proceed with changes throughout the UK.  All of us must play our part in that, and, of course, to play our part in those changes, we need to be in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, where the table will be laid out for discussions about how and when changes will happen.  Hopefully, everyone can play their part in that, and we will not have the position that some — namely Sinn Féin — adopt in which they complain when decisions are taken and then, when there is an option to try to change them, boycott the place where the changes will occur.  So hopefully, we can move on.  As I said, the Scotland referendum is now finished.  It is done and dusted, and we now get down to the hard work of ensuring that people do not feel disaffected, irrespective of which part of this United Kingdom they live in and belong to.

Photo of Daithí McKay Daithí McKay Sinn Féin

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle.  All has changed, and changed utterly.  I do not think that anybody could not agree that these islands have changed as a result of the result in Scotland.

What happened in Scotland was a true exercise in democracy.  We saw 16- and 17-year-olds voting for the first time, and there is absolutely no reason that that franchise cannot be extended to here as well.  We also saw a turnout of 85%, which is absolutely extraordinary by modern-day standards.  Of course, politics should not be left to just the politicians.  In terms of our future on this island and where the North's best interests lie, we should have the same debate.  It was a healthy exercise in Scotland.  There was some scaremongering, but, across the world, Scotland has been held up as a shining example of how to hold a mature debate about future governance.  We should have a poll in Ireland about whether Ireland is better together and, like I said, no scaremongering. 

The public in Scotland and the public here do not want their politicians to continue to bend the knee to the Tories and the British Treasury.  There is a tendency for politicians here to accept whatever the Treasury says as gospel.  If the Treasury says that we owe a certain amount of money, we will not even question it.  The Scottish Government did question it and did their own figures, whereas the Department of Finance here does not want to know.  That is not acting in our best interests or in the best interests of the public.

Of course, economic report after economic report — I think that there have been about 15 in recent years — shows that the North lacks fiscal levers and that it suffers because of that.  Any figures for economic output and growth show that we continue to suffer, whilst the South, even with its difficulties, continues to have greater levels of growth.  That is because we do not have the fiscal levers, and our fiscal policies are set at Westminster by the British Government in the interests of the island of Britain.  We need to wise up to the fact that we need fiscal levers here.  We need those levers to ensure that the policies set here are in the interests of the people in the North and are set with the realisation that we live on a different island and therefore need different policies.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

We also convey our best wishes to Speaker Hay.

Whatever the different views in the Chamber — that of Mr Nesbitt and others who are for the union and that of I and others who were for Scottish independence — we should first and foremost recognise the people of Scotland, the contribution that they have made and the gratitude that we owe them.  The people of Scotland demonstrated the power of the democratic approach — what Alex Salmond referred to as the democratic and consented process.  What they have achieved and how far they have travelled puts into sharp relief how little we have travelled because of those in our society on the state and non-state sides who, for many a long year, opposed the democratic approach and used coercion.

The people of Scotland have forever changed the character of politics and the nature of the union.  Whether it be devo max, home rule or independence in the future, the people of Scotland, by the decisions that they took and the votes that they cast, have put all of that on the radar.  From our point of view, we will argue for the maximisation of devolution here, and it is the people of Scotland who have opened the doors to all of that.

We also recognise the young people of Scotland.  If people who are 16 and 17 can be given the opportunity to shape the constitution of their nation, they should also have the opportunity to shape the politics and government of their nation, and that applies to all parts of these islands.

We also owe a debt of gratitude to the SNP.  More than any other party or Government, it has demonstrated the difference between being in government and being in power.  The vote they got was recognition of that.  People in our Government should draw conclusions from the power and success of what they have achieved if we are to follow likewise.

Finally, we should acknowledge Alex Salmond, because he created new standards for democracy, for leadership and for Governments.  For all of that and for all of his colleagues in government, I think that we all owe him a lot.

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance 12:15, 22 September 2014

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I echo your words of good wishes for the Speaker.

As Mr Nesbitt said, there is no doubt that the result of the Scottish referendum was a very significant event, but, by its nature, referenda or referendums, whichever way you put it, in the United Kingdom tend to be about significant matters —

Photo of David Ford David Ford Alliance

Try the Greek rather than the Latin, gentlemen.

They are significant issues because they are those that are put to the people, rather than being determined by those in legislatures.  However, we also need to be clear that the victory for the Better Together campaign was not actually a victory for unionism over nationalism.  It was a victory based on the promise of devo max from the two parties in the current Westminster Government and the party that might or might not be part of or form the next Government.  That, because it was devo max and not just unionism and nationalism, is what has fundamentally altered the nature of relationships within these islands in general.  There is no doubt that the Prime Minister recognised that at 7.00 am on Friday when he clearly addressed the issue of the English question.

However, it is also clear that it is a major issue for Wales and Northern Ireland.  For example, we know that Wales is looking at potentially increasing its powers in the field of devolving justice and extricating itself from the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice's responsibilities.  However, where are we in Northern Ireland?  Unfortunately, in this place, we have a record of failure to deal with those difficult issues.  We are currently running through a crisis because of our inabilities and our immaturity, so how could we possibly make a case for suggesting that we should be looking for additional powers until we seek to resolve those problems?

In his contribution, Mr McKay said that it was time that we wised up, which may or may not be parliamentary language.  I tend to agree with him, but I do not know that it is in exactly the way in which he would have intended, because it seems to me that, at the moment, we have a complete immaturity on economics, which is matched by an irresponsibility on some of the issues around parades and flags, and we have a group of victims from the past who are utterly let down by our failure in this place to deal with the key issues for us.  It is great to talk about what the Scots have achieved, but unless we are prepared to knuckle down and engage in real and meaningful talks here to solve our problems, then we have nothing to say.

There is an issue that will need a proper constitutional convention for the UK at some point.  However, it is much more urgent for us to tackle the issues that confront this society, not just the financial issues but those that we failed to deal with at the end of last year, and start to show some leadership in this place.

Photo of Jim Allister Jim Allister Traditional Unionist Voice

I join in the best wishes to Mr Speaker.  I trust that his health will radically improve.

I greatly welcome the result in Scotland and, unlike the union-agnostic Mr Ford, I recognise that it was a victory for the union and one that one very much appreciates and supports.  It was good to see the canny, wise Scots refuse the invitation to break up the United Kingdom, and I believe that the cause of those who sought to break it up may well now wane in consequence.

The Prime Minister said that, after the referendum, there is a need for constitutional reform.  He is probably right, but he would be totally wrong in so far as this House is concerned were he to say that this House, which cannot handle the powers that it has, needs more powers.  This House does not need more powers.  This House has structures that, in the words of the First Minister, are unfit for purpose, and therefore it is unable to handle even the powers that it has. 

What this House needs is parity of democratic rights with the rest of the United Kingdom.  There are components of Scotland and Wales's settlements that we take for granted.  The very right to have an opposition is taken for granted in Edinburgh and Cardiff; indeed, it is taken for granted across the democratic world.  Yet here, even that basic democratic right is denied in these institutions.  On top of that, the people of Scotland and Wales have the basic democratic right to change their Government; to vote a party that they are disillusioned with out of government.  Of course, because of the import of an unworkable mandatory coalition, we do not even have that right here.  If the Prime Minister is talking about constitutional reform, he should start at the point where one infuses the democratic imperatives into the structures that we have in this House.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is almost up.

Photo of Jim Allister Jim Allister Traditional Unionist Voice

Let me be very clear:  the enemies of Stormont are those who refuse to contemplate the democratisation of Stormont.  That is who they are.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Treasury)

I also pass on my best wishes to the Speaker at this time. 

I congratulate the people of Scotland for recognising the benefits of the union, despite the tartan terror tactics of the SNP during a very contentious referendum campaign:  one that saw academics threatened; civil servants abusing their power; public meetings broken up; businessmen told that there would be consequences if they did not keep their mouths shut; and people afraid even to show their loyalties and where they stood for fear of having their property attacked.  It was typical of the nasty face of nationalism.  We have seen it in Northern Ireland, and the people of Scotland witnessed it during the referendum campaign. 

Despite all of that, the people of Scotland saw the benefits of the union.  They saw the security benefits in an unstable world, the economic benefits in a world with increasing globalisation and, of course, the historical benefits that have been reaped over a long period.  We, in Northern Ireland, owe to many people in Scotland a great debt of gratitude for the way in which soldiers joined the British Army and defended the people of Northern Ireland against IRA terrorism and sacrificed their lives here.  For that reason, we ought to be grateful:  first, for the sacrifices made; and secondly, for the fact that the Scottish people have not only recognised in the past the importance of the union through their sacrifices but have voted on the importance of the union. 

There is a message for the people of Northern Ireland in this, for those who might be enticed by a border poll.  I am surprised that Sinn Féin wishes to have a border poll, given that 25% of its own supporters do not support its idea of a united Ireland.  A vast majority of people here are in favour of the union.  Of course, Sinn Féin will wish to divert attention away from its incompetence in this place — its economic incompetence, which, despite its hatred of the Tories in Westminster, means that it is happy to hand £9 million of our money back every month, rather than make decisions that have to be made in this House. 

To the people of Northern Ireland, I say that the people of Scotland saw the benefits of the union.  We in Northern Ireland know the benefits of the union.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is up.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Treasury)

In any border poll that there might be in the future, should there be one, I am sure that the people of Northern Ireland will make exactly the same decision as the people in Scotland.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

I beg your pardon; I was distracted by the last person to speak.  I call Mr Jonathan Bell.

Photo of Jonathan Bell Jonathan Bell DUP

I think that we were right to stay silent as the Scots made probably the most momentous decision of their generation or, as the Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond, said, a decision that has been made for a lifetime.  That does not mask or take away from the fact that many of us were passionately committed to the retention of the Union, but it was for the people of Scotland to decide.  The Scots have chosen for their generation, for their lifetime, and I believe that they have chosen wisely. 

Our great Union is a benefit for every part of our United Kingdom, and we are a greater place today with Scotland strongly within that Union.  I come from a constituency where Ulster Scots has a profoundly deep, long-lasting and positive impact — many of our families, including my own, can trace our ancestry back to there.  It is not just a temporal thing; the Union has benefited all of us through not only the generations but the lifetimes.

Like my colleague Mr Wilson, I pay tribute to the Scots who helped to protect democracy here; in particular, three Scottish soldiers who lost their lives when I was just a child, but also the many other Scottish soldiers who live with physical and psychological injury as a result of defeating terrorism and defeating the terrorists of democracy here in this part of the United Kingdom.  We owe them a huge debt that we can never repay.

On economic, cultural, social and tourism grounds, the link of our Union is so profound, and it is to be celebrated that the Scots have chosen so wisely.

I listened to the — I would not say incompetent economics; I go a step further and say the incontinent economics of Sinn Féin.  I never laughed as hard as when I heard one of its spokesmen talk this morning about how he was going to get £10 billion, which, by the way, is what we get extra from the Treasury compared to what we put into Her Majesty's Treasury.  He was going to get that £10 billion back because he was going to cut the Civil List.  It was comedy hour and completely economically incompetent, because the House is facing a whole range of Sinn Féin cuts:  cuts to vulnerable people, cuts to disabled people, cuts to the National Health Service.  These are Sinn Féin cuts that are being driven forward, and still they would like to draw a mask —

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

The Member's time is almost up.

Photo of Jonathan Bell Jonathan Bell DUP

— that they could get some £10 billion back.  The Scots have chosen; they have chosen wisely; and we need to continue to proclaim the benefits of the Union, so secure here now in Northern Ireland.

Photo of John McCallister John McCallister UUP

I join colleagues in wishing the Speaker a full and speedy recovery.

Like many colleagues here, I welcome Scotland's decision to stay within the United Kingdom.  There is a general recognition that the outcome of this campaign has resulted in the Union entering a period of constitutional change.  The Prime Minister's timetable for Scottish devolution also brings up the West Lothian question, and it means that this debate is happening now.  We must get it right.  We cannot act in haste and repent at leisure.

I ask these questions.  Are the Northern Ireland Executive ready to participate in such a debate to get the best outcome for our citizens?  Have the Executive even agreed any type of joint position on negotiating a new settlement for Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom?  Were additional fiscal powers to be devolved, are the Northern Ireland Executive fit to deal with them and the responsibility that that would bring?

A little over a year ago, I set out what I called how you might deal with a road map to building a normal society.  At the top of that was reforming the Assembly, getting a proper Government and opposition.  We are seeing the need for that at the minute, with the paralysis in the Assembly and our Executive.  We needed a fiscal powers commission to look at the various powers that we might devolve and their effects.  Will the Executive's policy change if Scotland gets corporation tax powers?  Where are we down the road, when Scotland and Wales have had Calman and Silk reporting? 

Welfare illustrates the changes.  Scotland is now looking for welfare to be devolved, and we are talking about not being able to deal with it.  The First Minister suggested perhaps giving it back to Westminster.  One of his predecessors also suggested that.  We are going in the opposite direction with many of these things.  Getting beyond tribal politics, how do we move away from the them-and-us politics?  Sinn Féin talks about getting a border poll when it is failing even to operate this like a functioning Government and face up to its responsibilities on welfare reform.

The big difference that Scotland has had over the last 15 years of devolution is that it has had a functioning Parliament and Executive.  That is in stark contrast to what we have done.  At the minute, we look on being part of the Union as a right, not a responsibility.  We need to face up to those responsibilities and to what being part of a great and modern United Kingdom means.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party 12:30, 22 September 2014

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.  It is in relation to the comments that were made by Mr Wilson, who is on his phone at the moment.  If somebody in the Chamber, in the course of a debate, commented on another political party involved in a political campaign in the following terms, referring to the SDLP's "green terror tactics", I would like to think that the Speaker would take action.  During the course of the last half an hour, Mr Wilson referred to — Hansard will confirm this — the "tartan terror tactics of the SNP".  I ask that you, as a matter of urgency, review the record of Hansard and rule on those comments.  Those comments were made about a party that is exclusively democratic, as Mr Wilson knows because he sat in the room with it often enough in relation to issues of government and politics.  I ask you, as a matter of urgency, to rule on that matter.

Photo of Sammy Wilson Sammy Wilson Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Treasury)

Further to that point of order, I hope that, when you are reviewing the comments that I made — let me repeat that it was not "green terror tactics" but "the tartan terror tactics of the SNP" — you will also review the comments that were made afterwards, which illustrated the kinds of tactics that were involved during the campaign and which clearly embarrass another nationalist party that has such great ties with the SNP.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

On this matter, I will consult Hansard and make a decision on that.  People should not see it as an opportunity to draw the business of this House into whatever passed in the course of the referendum discussions and remarks or actions by parties that have no part in this Assembly.

Photo of Mike Nesbitt Mike Nesbitt UUP

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.  I am satisfied that "referendum" is a gerund of Latin extraction.  Therefore, I encourage the Minister to use "referenda" when referring to the plural.

Photo of Mitchel McLaughlin Mitchel McLaughlin Sinn Féin

I will take that as a point of information.

The House will take its ease while we change the top Table.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)